{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4669", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4669, "subject": "Agia/Hypogeon", "messages": 12, "voices": 9, "first": "2006-07-23T08:12:28+00:00", "last": "2006-07-26T18:59:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<200607230812.k6N8CTxM068063@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-07-23T08:12:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia/Hypogeon", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Besides \"Theoanthropos\", Agia calls on another entity in Shadow: \n\"Well, high Hypogeon help you.\" (Ch 18)\n\n\"Hypogeon\" presumably means something like \"the one under the \nearth\", and this neatly ties in to the man-ape cave scene and the \nbeing the Claw disturbs there - my guess is that Agia worships this \nbeing, and knows about the cave because of that. \n\nA suprising thing about Agia is that she cares about religion. \nShe's the one who tutors Sev in the history of the Claw and the \nPelerines; she understands that the Conciliator is the \"master of \nPower\" and may transcend time; she knows that a particular building \nis the \"mensal of the monachs\"; when Sev fils to die in the avern \ncombat, she shouts, \"Sacrilege!\" This last reminds me of Jonah's \ndescription of the notules; used on some far distant world for \nritual murders - perhaps the averns have a similar story, and \nHethor is Agia's and Agilus' tutor in devil-thing-worship?\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-23T14:20:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia/Hypogeon", "in_reply_to": "<200607230812.k6N8CTxM068063@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thalassocrat writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Hypogeon\" presumably means something like \"the one under the earth\", and \nthis neatly ties in to >the man-ape cave scene and the being the Claw \ndisturbs there - my guess is that Agia worships >this being, and knows \nabout the cave because of that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A suprising thing about Agia is that she cares about religion. She's the \none who tutors Sev in the >history of the Claw and the Pelerines; she \nunderstands that the Conciliator is the \"master of Power\" and may transcend \ntime; she knows that a particular building is the \"mensal of the >monachs\"; \nwhen Sev fils to die in the avern combat, she shouts, \"Sacrilege!\" This \nlast reminds me >of Jonah's description of the notules; used on some far \ndistant world for ritual murders - perhaps >the averns have a similar \nstory, and Hethor is Agia's and Agilus' tutor in devil-thing-worship?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really think you are onto something here. I've always thought her yelling \n\"Sacrilege!\" was very meaningful. As though death by avern was a holy \n(unholy) event. Her coin scratched devil symbol has been mentioned numerous \ntimes in the past. Her use of a lucivee weapon, almost identical (I think \nit is in fact, identical and part of a Wolfe literary deception) to the \njungle sorcerers' claws, ties her to them.\n\nAgia is familiar with the cave but also very familiar with the Botanic \nGardens. Who built them and who planted the averns (to keep out \nmanatees/undines...hmm..)? Who put the treasure in the cave and set the \nman-apes to guard it? Who is having these perversions of human+beasts guard \nthe Nessus wall and the gold carriage at Orithyea? Who is this devilish \nleader who has inspired a cult to prevent the coming of the New Sun?\n\nI cannot answer on the grounds that I am accused of obsession ;-). And \ndammit, as I wrote this I realized Father Inire probably makes another \nappearance I hadn't thought of before. This SUCKS!\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44C3A266.7000503@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-23T16:23:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia/Hypogeon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nAgia is familiar with the cave but also very familiar with the Botanic \nGardens. Who built them and who planted the averns (to keep out \nmanatees/undines...hmm..)? Who put the treasure in the cave and set the \nman-apes to guard it? Who is having these perversions of human+beasts guard \nthe Nessus wall and the gold carriage at Orithyea? Who is this devilish \nleader who has inspired a cult to prevent the coming of the New Sun?\n\nI cannot answer on the grounds that I am accused of obsession ;-). And \ndammit, as I wrote this I realized Father Inire probably makes another \nappearance I hadn't thought of before. This SUCKS!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These last sound more like the doings of the Autarch, who is flat out \nshown doing sneaky things under assumed identities, unlike Inire who is \nonly suspected of it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2006-07-23T22:37:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia/Hypogeon", "in_reply_to": "<200607230812.k6N8CTxM068063@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n...my guess is that Agia worships this\nbeing, and knows about the cave because of that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agia says IIRC that the cave was suggested by her locally recruited\nsidekicks, so Sev would have nowhere safe to escape to.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001e01c6aede$a8fa8180$783ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-07-24T05:04:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia/Hypogeon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nb sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agia is familiar with the cave but also very familiar with the Botanic\nGardens. Who built them and who planted the averns (to keep out\nmanatees/undines...hmm..)? Who put the treasure in the cave and set the\nman-apes to guard it? Who is having these perversions of human+beasts\nguard\nthe Nessus wall and the gold carriage at Orithyea? Who is this devilish\nleader who has inspired a cult to prevent the coming of the New Sun?\n\nI cannot answer on the grounds that I am accused of obsession ;-). And\ndammit, as I wrote this I realized Father Inire probably makes another\nappearance I hadn't thought of before. This SUCKS!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These last sound more like the doings of the Autarch, who is flat out\nshown doing sneaky things under assumed identities, unlike Inire who is\nonly suspected of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff is right about the man-apes of the treasure mine being the autarch's to\ncommand -- see the first page of chapter XXXI in CITADEL.\n\nAm I reading you right? Are you seriously suggesting that Inire was working\nto prevent the coming of the New Sun?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607241910y565fed20n752ef9d21d07614c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-25T02:10:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Agia/Hypogeon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/23/06, b sharp wrote:\nI cannot answer on the grounds that I am accused of obsession ;-)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good heavens, who _accused_ you? Accusation is for\nbad things. Lupine obsessions are just part of the game,\nsomething to be aware of and allow for, not to avoid like\nthe plague. Clearly Fr. I. is important; your take on just\n_how_ important may look to _me_ like an obsession\n-- and I use the word in a non-pejorative sense -- but\nthat doesn't mean you can't find good meat using it as\na tool. I've certainly found plenty using my Christianity\ncrochet." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44C58E79.9090407@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-25T03:22:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: Agia/Hypogeon", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c6aede$a8fa8180$783ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Agia is familiar with the cave but also very familiar with the Botanic\nGardens. Who built them and who planted the averns (to keep out\nmanatees/undines...hmm..)? Who put the treasure in the cave and set the\nman-apes to guard it? Who is having these perversions of human+beasts" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "guard" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "the Nessus wall and the gold carriage at Orithyea? Who is this devilish\nleader who has inspired a cult to prevent the coming of the New Sun?\n\nI cannot answer on the grounds that I am accused of obsession ;-). And\ndammit, as I wrote this I realized Father Inire probably makes another\nappearance I hadn't thought of before. This SUCKS!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "These last sound more like the doings of the Autarch, who is flat out\nshown doing sneaky things under assumed identities, unlike Inire who is\nonly suspected of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff is right about the man-apes of the treasure mine being the autarch's to\ncommand -- see the first page of chapter XXXI in CITADEL.\n\nAm I reading you right? Are you seriously suggesting that Inire was working\nto prevent the coming of the New Sun?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Inire is really all those other people and in all those other places, \nhe's likely a double agent posing as one of the sun-stoppers, the same \nway the Autarch is also a spy for Vodalus' revolution against the \nAutarchy, and the BFO trio court both black thaumaturgists like \nBaldanders and saintly theurgists like Severian. On which side his true \nloyalties lie would be hazy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0E8A8361-C811-447A-BD01-B063ADC6275F@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-25T15:37:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: Agia/Hypogeon", "in_reply_to": "<44C58E79.9090407@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 24, 2006, at 10:22 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nIf Inire is really all those other people and in all those other \nplaces,\nhe's likely a double agent posing as one of the sun-stoppers, the same\nway the Autarch is also a spy for Vodalus' revolution against the\nAutarchy, and the BFO trio court both black thaumaturgists like\nBaldanders and saintly theurgists like Severian. On which side his \ntrue\nloyalties lie would be hazy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could this be a Lupine elaboration on the double-agency in \nChesterton's nightmare \"The Man who Was Thursday\"?\n\nThe Autarch would be Sunday, with Severian as Thursday. I don't \nrecall any analogues for Inire, though." } ] }, { "message_id": "<047499EB-9353-4081-A5A8-0E3D3D026B95@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-25T23:06:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC question", "in_reply_to": "<0E8A8361-C811-447A-BD01-B063ADC6275F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, I have just finished _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_.\n\nSPOILERS BELOW. Stop here if you haven't read 5HC.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nStill with me?\n\nOK.\n\nSo, it seems pretty clear that Blue is Ste. Croix, Green is Ste. \nAnne, and that the abos are the inhumu. What I don't know is which \nof these three hypotheses is right:\n\na) Wolfe just really likes the idea of shapeshifting creatures \nbecoming what they mimic. So he recycled the central conceit from \n5HC into the Short Sun books, but other than that we aren't supposed \nto see any connection between the stories.\nb) Ste.-Anne and Ste.-Croix are Green and Blue from an earlier \nuniverse-cycle, even farther from the eventual Incarnation and thus \nend of history. Me, I'm not at all sure I buy the spiral-time \ntheory, so I don't really like this one.\nc) They're the same planets in the same universe. But in that case: \nif SS happens after 5HC, then the ruins on Green are explicable, but \nwhy are there no signs of prior human settlement on Blue? \nContrariwise, if 5HC postdates SS, then why are there no signs in 5HC \nof prior human settlement on either planet in 5HC? And who are the \nVisitors anyway?\n\nThis also raises a troubling, to me, theological point, that exists \nin SS too:\n\nIf the inhumu are merely what they mimic, and before the arrival of \nhumanity they are innocent beasts, but after they bite humans they \ncan in most essential ways *be* humans....then do they have souls? \nIf so, when do these souls come into being?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Lefstin", "address": "jeff.lefstin at stanfordalumni.org" }, "date": "2006-07-26T01:28:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC question", "in_reply_to": "<047499EB-9353-4081-A5A8-0E3D3D026B95@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this has been discussed before, but myself, I favor (a). Just \nas Wolfe recycled aspects of the ship in \"Silhouette\" in Tzadkiel's \nship, or the duel in \"Tracking Song\" to the combat on the Sanguinary \nFields.\n\nIn general, I think GW doesn't play ridiculously complicated games with \nus re FACTUAL issues (hiding Father Inire behind every bush, making \neveryone a clone of everyone else). Yes, he makes us hunt for a few \nthings but I think there are pretty clear lines between what is \nexplicit, slightly hidden, suggested, and insolubly ambigous. In my \nview, what world we're usually falls in the first two categories.\n\n\nMore to the point, GW writes LITERATURE - in the sense that characters \nand things are very often richly symbolic. I find it much less \ninteresting whether Valeria lives in a time-traveling building (not \nthat I think she does) compared to what she represents in light of \nGW's overarching themes.\n\nSo, if Blue = St. Croix and Green = St. Anne, what significance to the \nthemes and symbols GW is working with?\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, it seems pretty clear that Blue is Ste. Croix, Green is Ste.\nAnne, and that the abos are the inhumu. What I don't know is which\nof these three hypotheses is right:\n\na) Wolfe just really likes the idea of shapeshifting creatures\nbecoming what they mimic. So he recycled the central conceit from\n5HC into the Short Sun books, but other than that we aren't supposed\nto see any connection between the stories.\nb) Ste.-Anne and Ste.-Croix are Green and Blue from an earlier\nuniverse-cycle, even farther from the eventual Incarnation and thus\nend of history. Me, I'm not at all sure I buy the spiral-time\ntheory, so I don't really like this one.\nc) They're the same planets in the same universe. But in that case:\nif SS happens after 5HC, then the ruins on Green are explicable, but\nwhy are there no signs of prior human settlement on Blue?\nContrariwise, if 5HC postdates SS, then why are there no signs in 5HC\nof prior human settlement on either planet in 5HC? And who are the\nVisitors anyway?\n\nThis also raises a troubling, to me, theological point, that exists\nin SS too:\n\nIf the inhumu are merely what they mimic, and before the arrival of\nhumanity they are innocent beasts, but after they bite humans they\ncan in most essential ways *be* humans....then do they have souls?\nIf so, when do these souls come into being?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-26T11:46:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Jeffrey Lefstin that the Blue-Green theme found across Wolfe \nworks should be seen as symbolic rather than factual. That Earth is covered \nwith water and life? I dunno.\n\nGene Wolfe was asked by James Jordan: \"Which of the following, if any, are \nphysically (not in some merely literary or symbolic sense) the same planets \nas Blue and Green, in the same order?:\n\nUshas and Lune\nUrth and Lune\nLune and Ushas\nLune and Urth\nTwo Urths\nTwo Ushases\nTwo Lunes\n\nGene Wolfe: \"None\"\n\nI disagree with Jeffrey Lefstin's definition of \"literature\" as works in \nwhich \"characters\nand things are very often richly symbolic\". What do you call enduring \nclassics which don't rely on symbolism and multiple subtext levels to engage \na reader? Aren't there many great works of literature which are such \nbecause they rely on an interesting story, interesting character \ndevelopment, witty dialogue or interesting historical context? Why limit so \nnarrowly?\n\nAdam Thornton notes and asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This also raises a troubling, to me, theological point, that exists in SS \ntoo:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the inhumu are merely what they mimic, and before the arrival of \nhumanity they are innocent >beasts, but after they bite humans they can in \nmost essential ways *be* humans....then do they >have souls? If so, when \ndo these souls come into being?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shape-shifting is a physical process. A shape-shifter may physically \nimitate a human so closely as to allow interbreeding but that is only a \nmaterial resemblance. A soul is immaterial and must be acquired through \nSpecial Creation, right? (well, one part of the Bible suggests we don't get \na soul until after death, but anyway...)\n\nSo an interesting question is: What about offspring of human and non-human? \nIs it possible to have a partial soul? Or perhaps a contaminated soul? I \nthink Wolfe might be addressing this in BotNS.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<932e3aae0f469fdf7eb85beb8ea92647@stanfordalumni.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Lefstin", "address": "jeff.lefstin at stanfordalumni.org" }, "date": "2006-07-26T18:59:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry b, I wasn't meaning to define or limit \"literature.\" I guess I \nneed a word that means \"literature with richly embroidered layers of \nmeaning and symbol.\" if there is one and if that isn't too mixed of a \nmetaphor.\n\nAnother GW recycling from short story to novel I forgot to mention: \nThe \"overmonitor\" program in the ship in Silhouette is supposedly wiped \nfrom the mainframe, but survives by distributing itself to little \ncomputers in appliances and such. Same as Pas in BotSS.\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree with Jeffrey Lefstin's definition of \"literature\" as works \nin\nwhich \"characters\nand things are very often richly symbolic\". What do you call enduring\nclassics which don't rely on symbolism and multiple subtext levels to \nengage\na reader? Aren't there many great works of literature which are such\nbecause they rely on an interesting story, interesting character\ndevelopment, witty dialogue or interesting historical context? Why \nlimit so\nnarrowly?" } ] } ] }