{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4673", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4673, "subject": "\"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "messages": 13, "voices": 6, "first": "2006-07-25T19:08:33+00:00", "last": "2006-07-28T18:08:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "ori kowarsky", "address": "orikowarsky at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-25T19:08:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello all,I've just finsihed re-reading FHC and something leapt out at me which seemed worth delurking to explore (whether it will seem worthwhile to anyone else is another matter ...).It seems to me -- and forgive me if this has been raised before, but I couldn't find anything in the archives -- that the prisoner in cell 143 is John Marsch. By which I mean the Earthman John Marsch.If you look chronologically at Marsch's entries from April 24 onwards what seems to be happening is a double-blending. Something has happened to Marsch that makes\nhim think that he's a half-abo boy named Victor; once that\ntransference takes place \"Victor\" subsequently decides to \"become\"\n\"Marsch\" because that's what marsch believes abos do. It's as though water trapped in a container is being tipped first to the left and then to the right before attaining some kind of equilibrium.I'll first try to sketch out the \"how\" of it which will hopefully blend into the \"why\".1. Shadow child influence. One day before the transformation begins (but I would not say completes -- see below) Marsch is bitten on the hand by Victor's cat. In \"A Story\", a very strange thing happens at the end, which is Eastwind is bitten (again, on the hand) by a Shadow child who tells him (and Sandwalker) that the bite will cause some kind of exchange of souls or perspectives. Sandwalker then kills Eastwind -- or does he? Because in \"V.R.T.\" the abo who greets the colonists at Frenchman's Landing is named Eastwind. The transference is first claimed to be accomplished by the narcotic inside the Shadow child's mouth, but later the Shadow child claims that the transference is based on personal belief -- ie. is psychosomatic.Now, I recognize that \"A Story\" is written by John/Victor and so it is debatable whether the story describes a) an actual happening, b) an actual legend, c) is a thinly (V)eiled account of what happened to John/Victor in the back of the beyond or d) is a complete red herring. I would say, though, that the fact that \"A Story\" raises an unanswered question as to the true identity of the individual historically known as Eastwind, plus the fact that the exchange happens via a bite to the hand means that it is significant -- either as a description of one of the Shadow children's powers, a belief about the Shadow children's powers or as a sublimation of something psycholgical that has happened to Marsch.2. Transference.I'm not a psycholgist, but it seems to me that there is sufficient pre-April 24 material to support the idea that even if there is no Shadow child magic going on, there is definitely evidence to support the idea that there is a psycholigcal transference that occurs in Marsch either as the result of the matrix of his personality/profession and environment (he has literally \"gone native\"), erotic tranference, or a combination of the two.3. The missing months.Asuming that what Marsch later writes about the date (being June, not April) is correct, the process of double-blending occurs over a large space of time. I would argue that during much of this period Victor is still alive and March is unknowingly assuming Victor's persona as they continue the exploration. I believe that it is Victor who in fact died, either as the result of an accident (as written) or somehow in the course of a botched seduction attempt by Marsch or else an attempt by Marsch to catch Victor with the suspected female abo.However it happens, Marsch experiences a complete personality breakdown in the immensity of the wilderness and comes to believe that he is Victor. He then must explain to himself why he a) is alone and b) looks like Marsch,\nand since he has been immersed in theories that the abos are shapeshifters who take on human form \"Victor\" becomes \"Marsch\".This is as far as I've gotten with the theory. Again, if anyone has previously raised this I apologise for the redudancy and would love to be directed to any posts that outline its development.I would say, finally, that I believe that the Shdaow child in \"A Story\" -- whether he existed or not -- tells a fundamental truth about the colonization of St. Anne. There are no aliens. There are no abos. There are only humans who colonized St. Anne at different times and whose minds and bodies were colonzied by St. Anne in turn. It may be that the only true abo is the alien plant cud in the Shadow child's mouth.Ori " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-26T13:03:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about others, but for me, Ori's (orikowarsky at hotmail.com) \npost had the formatting so out of whack it was unreadable. I cut and pasted \nhis post here, reformatted; hopefully it will work better for all:\n\nHello all,I've just finsihed re-reading FHC and something leapt out at me \nwhich seemed worth delurking to explore (whether it will seem worthwhile to \nanyone else is another matter ...).It seems to me -- and forgive me if this \nhas been raised before, but I couldn't find anything in the archives -- that \nthe prisoner in cell 143 is John Marsch. By which I mean the Earthman John \nMarsch.If you look chronologically at Marsch's entries from April 24 onwards \nwhat seems to be happening is a double-blending. Something has happened to \nMarsch that makes\nhim think that he's a half-abo boy named Victor; once that\ntransference takes place \"Victor\" subsequently decides to \"become\"\n\"Marsch\" because that's what marsch believes abos do. It's as though water \ntrapped in a container is being tipped first to the left and then to the \nright before attaining some kind of equilibrium.I'll first try to sketch out \nthe \"how\" of it which will hopefully blend into the \"why\".1. Shadow child \ninfluence. One day before the transformation begins (but I would not say \ncompletes -- see below) Marsch is bitten on the hand by Victor's cat. In \"A \nStory\", a very strange thing happens at the end, which is Eastwind is bitten \n(again, on the hand) by a Shadow child who tells him (and Sandwalker) that \nthe bite will cause some kind of exchange of souls or perspectives. \nSandwalker then kills Eastwind -- or does he? Because in \"V.R.T.\" the abo \nwho greets the colonists at Frenchman's Landing is named Eastwind. The \ntransference is first claimed to be accomplished by the narcotic inside the \nShadow child's mouth, but later the Shadow child claims that the \ntransference is based on personal belief -- ie. is psychosomatic.Now, I \nrecognize that \"A Story\" is written by John/Victor and so it is debatable \nwhether the story describes a) an actual happening, b) an actual legend, \nc) is a thinly (V)eiled account of what happened to John/Victor in the back \nof the beyond or d) is a complete red herring. I would say, though, that \nthe fact that \"A Story\" raises an unanswered question as to the true \nidentity of the individual historically known as Eastwind, plus the fact \nthat the exchange happens via a bite to the hand means that it is \nsignificant -- either as a description of one of the Shadow children's \npowers, a belief about the Shadow children's powers or as a sublimation of \nsomething psycholgical that has happened to Marsch.2. Transference.I'm not \na psycholgist, but it seems to me that there is sufficient pre-April 24 \nmaterial to support the idea that even if there is no Shadow child magic \ngoing on, there is definitely evidence to support the idea that there is a \npsycholigcal transference that occurs in Marsch either as the result of the \nmatrix of his personality/profession and environment (he has literally \"gone \nnative\"), erotic tranference, or a combination of the two.3. The missing \nmonths.Asuming that what Marsch later writes about the date (being June, not \nApril) is correct, the process of double-blending occurs over a large space \nof time. I would argue that during much of this period Victor is still \nalive and March is unknowingly assuming Victor's persona as they continue \nthe exploration. I believe that it is Victor who in fact died, either as \nthe result of an accident (as written) or somehow in the course of a \nbotched seduction attempt by Marsch or else an attempt by Marsch to catch \nVictor with the suspected female abo.However it happens, Marsch experiences \na complete personality breakdown in the immensity of the wilderness and \ncomes to believe that he is Victor. He then must explain to himself why he \na) is alone and b) looks like Marsch,\nand since he has been immersed in theories that the abos are shapeshifters \nwho take on human form \"Victor\" becomes \"Marsch\".This is as far as I've \ngotten with the theory. Again, if anyone has previously raised this I \napologise for the redudancy and would love to be directed to any posts that \noutline its development.I would say, finally, that I believe that the Shdaow \nchild in \"A Story\" -- whether he existed or not -- tells a fundamental truth \nabout the colonization of St. Anne. There are no aliens. There are no abos. \n There are only humans who colonized St. Anne at different times and whose \nminds and bodies were colonzied by St. Anne in turn. It may be that the only \ntrue abo is the alien plant cud in the Shadow child's mouth.\n\nOri\n_________________________________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200607261444.04822.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-07-26T18:44:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 25 July 2006 15:08, ori kowarsky wrote:\nHello all,I've just finsihed re-reading FHC and something leapt out at me\nwhich seemed worth delurking to explore (whether it will seem worthwhile to\nanyone else is another matter ...).It seems to me -- and forgive me if this\nhas been raised before, but I couldn't find anything in the archives --\nthat the prisoner in cell 143 is John Marsch. By which I mean the Earthman\nJohn Marsch.If you look chronologically at Marsch's entries from April 24\nonwards what seems to be happening is a double-blending. Something has\nhappened to Marsch that makes him think that he's a half-abo boy named\nVictor; once that\ntransference takes place \"Victor\" subsequently decides to \"become\"\n\"Marsch\" because that's what marsch believes abos do. It's as though water\ntrapped in a container is being tipped first to the left and then to the\nright before attaining some kind of equilibrium.I'll first try to sketch\nout the \"how\" of it which will hopefully blend into the \"why\".1. Shadow\nchild influence. One day before the transformation begins (but I would not\nsay completes -- see below) Marsch is bitten on the hand by Victor's cat. \nIn \"A Story\", a very strange thing happens at the end, which is Eastwind is\nbitten (again, on the hand) by a Shadow child who tells him (and\nSandwalker) that the bite will cause some kind of exchange of souls or\nperspectives. Sandwalker then kills Eastwind -- or does he? Because in\n\"V.R.T.\" the abo who greets the colonists at Frenchman's Landing is named\nEastwind. The transference is first claimed to be accomplished by the\nnarcotic inside the Shadow child's mouth, but later the Shadow child claims\nthat the transference is based on personal belief -- ie. is\npsychosomatic.Now, I recognize that \"A Story\" is written by John/Victor and\nso it is debatable whether the story describes a) an actual happening, b) \nan actual legend, c) is a thinly (V)eiled account of what happened to\nJohn/Victor in the back of the beyond or d) is a complete red herring. I\nwould say, though, that the fact that \"A Story\" raises an unanswered\nquestion as to the true identity of the individual historically known as\nEastwind, plus the fact that the exchange happens via a bite to the hand\nmeans that it is significant -- either as a description of one of the\nShadow children's powers, a belief about the Shadow children's powers or as\na sublimation of something psycholgical that has happened to Marsch.2. \nTransference.I'm not a psycholgist, but it seems to me that there is\nsufficient pre-April 24 material to support the idea that even if there is\nno Shadow child magic going on, there is definitely evidence to support the\nidea that there is a psycholigcal transference that occurs in Marsch either\nas the result of the matrix of his personality/profession and environment\n(he has literally \"gone native\"), erotic tranference, or a combination of\nthe two.3. The missing months.Asuming that what Marsch later writes about\nthe date (being June, not April) is correct, the process of double-blending\noccurs over a large space of time. I would argue that during much of this\nperiod Victor is still alive and March is unknowingly assuming Victor's\npersona as they continue the exploration. I believe that it is Victor who\nin fact died, either as the result of an accident (as written) or somehow\nin the course of a botched seduction attempt by Marsch or else an attempt\nby Marsch to catch Victor with the suspected female abo.However it happens,\nMarsch experiences a complete personality breakdown in the immensity of the\nwilderness and comes to believe that he is Victor. He then must explain\nto himself why he a) is alone and b) looks like Marsch, and since he has\nbeen immersed in theories that the abos are shapeshifters who take on human\nform \"Victor\" becomes \"Marsch\".This is as far as I've gotten with the\ntheory. Again, if anyone has previously raised this I apologise for the\nredudancy and would love to be directed to any posts that outline its\ndevelopment.I would say, finally, that I believe that the Shdaow child in\n\"A Story\" -- whether he existed or not -- tells a fundamental truth about\nthe colonization of St. Anne. There are no aliens. There are no abos. \nThere are only humans who colonized St. Anne at different times and whose\nminds and bodies were colonzied by St. Anne in turn. It may be that the\nonly true abo is the alien plant cud in the Shadow child's mouth.Ori" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see very little evidence for the above suppositions. I think that, with \nWolfe, it's easy to get so wrapped up in uncovering clues and secrets that \none starts to see things when there's nothing there. I'm reminded of an old \ncountry song concerning a soldier with a deck of cards. You can find the \nstory here:\n\nhttp://www.cowboylyrics.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=26725&t=26725\n\nClearly, there is no real relationship between a deck of cards and Christian \ntheology. But it's quite possible to construct an extensive and plausible \nlink if one tries. With a body of work as extensive and convoluted as \nWolfe's, it's necessarily possible to find all sorts of links and connections \nthat the author never intended. I suspect that's the case with some of the \nmore exotic and esoteric theories that are discussed here.\n\nI think V.R.T is pretty clear - Marsch died and was replaced by Victor, who \nimitates him so well that he forgets that he's an imitation. He becomes that \nwhich he imitates. The same thing happens with the Face Dancer Tleilaxu in \nHerbert's later Dune books." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c6b0e6$d9b4f6c0$6501a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-07-26T19:08:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "<200607261444.04822.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ori wrote:\nSomething has happened to Marsch that makes\nhim think that he's a half-abo boy named Victor..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The similarity of Marsch's bite and Eastwind's is very suggestive, I\nagree, and something I've often wracked my brains over. \n\nHowever, my problem with your theory is the same problem I had with\nearlier arguments which said that VRT was delusional and only thinks\nthat he has become Marsch: given so many hints that the abos have some\nsort of ability of mimicry, doesn't it make more sense to assume that\nMarsch *has* been replaced by an abo, rather than that he suffers from\nthe curious delusion that he has? If he's delusional, you have to find\nan alternative explanation for Cassilla's apparent ability to look older\nat will, and for that of VRT's mother, and for many, many other things.\nIsn't it simpler to assume that abos can mimic and that this is what has\nhappened here? This is, after all, an SF novel. Such things are allowed.\n\nAlso, you're mistaken when you say that Eastwind was bitten on the hand,\nas Marsch/VRT claims to be. Eastwind is bitten on the arm, so you're\nstarting off from a slightly wobblier premise than you might have\nthought.\n\nAnd finally, don't forget that we don't actually *know* that Marsch/VRT\nwas bitten by the cat at all. If VRT has physically replaced Marsch,\nthis was just a lie to explain the change in handwriting, and there is\nno mystical cat-bite.\n\nAll that said, the whole Marsch-Victor-replacement-death thing is one of\nthe most maddeningly enigmatic parts of the whole book. The bite may\nindeed have happened and may indeed be hugely significant. But I don't\nthink Marsch only thinks he is VRT." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ori also wrote:\nThere are no aliens. There are no abos. \nThere are only humans who colonized St. Anne at different times\nand whose minds and bodies were colonzied by St. Anne in turn. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here I'm much in agreement with you. But while I think abos and humans\nare of the same race, I'm not so sure about the Shadow Children. One of\nthe last things the Old Wise One says is that before men came \"We were\nmostly long, and lived between the roots of trees.\" And later: \"Now I am\nhalf a man, and know that we were always here... listening without\nthought of our own to be men.\" But he leaves the matter ambiguous by\nadding \"or it may be that all are one stock.\" Thanks Gene." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0934EBFC-D97B-4041-A631-3D7F3EC4176A@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-27T03:04:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "<200607261444.04822.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:44 AM, Daniel D Jones wrote:\nI think V.R.T is pretty clear - Marsch died and was replaced by \nVictor, who\nimitates him so well that he forgets that he's an imitation. He \nbecomes that\nwhich he imitates. The same thing happens with the Face Dancer \nTleilaxu in\nHerbert's later Dune books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure he's replaced by Victor.\n\nI think Victor dies, but the cat has already bitten Victor before it \nbites Marsh, and just as in \"A Story\" both of them are more or less \nresident in the same body by the end. Maybe Victor is dominant. The \ncat is therefore a Shadow Child.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "ori kowarsky", "address": "orikowarsky at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-27T05:25:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "<0934EBFC-D97B-4041-A631-3D7F3EC4176A@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks bsharp! I had no idea my formatting was so off ...\n \nOri" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200607271411.45489.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-07-27T18:11:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "<0934EBFC-D97B-4041-A631-3D7F3EC4176A@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 26 July 2006 23:04, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Jul 26, 2006, at 11:44 AM, Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think V.R.T is pretty clear - Marsch died and was replaced by\nVictor, who\nimitates him so well that he forgets that he's an imitation. He\nbecomes that\nwhich he imitates. The same thing happens with the Face Dancer\nTleilaxu in\nHerbert's later Dune books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure he's replaced by Victor.\n\nI think Victor dies, but the cat has already bitten Victor before it\nbites Marsh, and just as in \"A Story\" both of them are more or less\nresident in the same body by the end. Maybe Victor is dominant. The\ncat is therefore a Shadow Child." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who (or what) is it that you think the Shadow Children are?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orikowarsky at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-27T18:24:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "<200607271411.45489.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tony and Daniel,\n\nThank you for your comments.\n\nBoth of you object to the theory on the basis that the abos are known\nto be shapechangers. This \"knowledge\" is based on hearsay. None of\nthe characters directly observes any instance of shapechanging. The\nability of Victor's mother to change is something we hear about via a\nman who has internalized an enormous amount of Annese folklore -- he\nmay be personalizing and regurgitating other people's stories.\nCassilla's \"aparent ability to look older at will\" is not something\nthat we know she is actually doing. We are supposing it because we,\nas readers, are filling in the blanks after reading something similar\nfrom Marsch's notes. It is actually more likely that she is being\nseen in an unflattering light after a long night.\n\nPlease remember as well that Wolfe tries not to play fast and loose\nwith the basic laws of physics. How long would the supposed abo\n\"worms\" have to be to contain the same amount of mass as the grown\nhumans they allegedly become?\n\nThere is similar confusion within the text about abos and tools.\nWeaving nets and using them to catch fish obviously requires greater\nmanual dexterity than using a shovel, and about as much manual\ndexterity as using a pen. (I would point out that here on Earth we\nknow certain primates use twigs to \"shovel\" out a spoonful of ants but\nzoologists would flip if a chimpanzee started drift-fishing with\nself-braided nets). The idea that there is some kind of Voight-Kampff\ntest to separate the abos from the humans on the basis of tool use\nmakes no sense in the context of what people tell us about the abos --\nit's like they say \"x\" and then in the same paragraph say \"not x\".\nIt, again, seems more reasonable to assume that this is a weird\nbigoted meme that has developed, either to dehumanize the abos for\npolitical, economic and legal reasons, or else to justify some kind of\nhuman-vs.-human massacre at the ford at Running Blood.\n\nGiven that 5HC is a study in ambiguity it may be impossible to clearly\nprove from the text that Marsch is \"Victor\". I would say, though,\nthat on the basis of that same ambiguity that we should be similarly\nwary of being too certain that Victor is \"Marsch\". Exploring\nalternate theories and viewpoints may lead to a greater appreciation\nof the work. I believe that if we recognize that there is no concrete\nfoundation for knowing who the prisoner in cell 143 is at all we gain\na more robust idea of what Wolfe seems to be saying about the nature\nof identity.\n\nOri" } ] }, { "message_id": "<28ECD664-B744-4F49-872D-4346277F0E7E@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-27T21:31:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "<200607271411.45489.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2006, at 11:11 AM, Daniel D Jones wrote:\nWho (or what) is it that you think the Shadow Children are?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inhumu. So I misspoke when I called the abos inhumu, or rather I \nmeant the subset of the aboriginal peoples who are the Shadow Children.\n\nUm, maybe. The book is a little baffling.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200607271747.34074.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-07-27T21:47:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday 27 July 2006 14:24, Ori Kowarsky wrote:\nTony and Daniel,\n\nThank you for your comments.\n\nBoth of you object to the theory on the basis that the abos are known\nto be shapechangers. This \"knowledge\" is based on hearsay. None of\nthe characters directly observes any instance of shapechanging. The\nability of Victor's mother to change is something we hear about via a\nman who has internalized an enormous amount of Annese folklore -- he\nmay be personalizing and regurgitating other people's stories.\nCassilla's \"aparent ability to look older at will\" is not something\nthat we know she is actually doing. We are supposing it because we,\nas readers, are filling in the blanks after reading something similar\nfrom Marsch's notes. It is actually more likely that she is being\nseen in an unflattering light after a long night." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think, if one considers the entire book and not just V.R.T, that there is a \ngreat deal of evidence that the abos did exist and were actual shape \nchangers. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please remember as well that Wolfe tries not to play fast and loose\nwith the basic laws of physics. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really? I guess I've been out of school too long. I had no idea that time \ntravel and certain peculiar types of black holes and white fountains and \nresurrections and all sorts of other things were now established as part of \nthe basic laws of physics. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How long would the supposed abo \n\"worms\" have to be to contain the same amount of mass as the grown\nhumans they allegedly become?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it necessary that they immediately take on the aspect of humans?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is similar confusion within the text about abos and tools.\nWeaving nets and using them to catch fish obviously requires greater\nmanual dexterity than using a shovel, and about as much manual\ndexterity as using a pen. (I would point out that here on Earth we\nknow certain primates use twigs to \"shovel\" out a spoonful of ants but\nzoologists would flip if a chimpanzee started drift-fishing with\nself-braided nets). The idea that there is some kind of Voight-Kampff\ntest to separate the abos from the humans on the basis of tool use\nmakes no sense in the context of what people tell us about the abos --\nit's like they say \"x\" and then in the same paragraph say \"not x\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting point that I'd not considered. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It, again, seems more reasonable to assume that this is a weird\nbigoted meme that has developed, either to dehumanize the abos for\npolitical, economic and legal reasons, or else to justify some kind of\nhuman-vs.-human massacre at the ford at Running Blood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me much more reasonable, if that's your criteria, to assume that \nthere were in fact abos who simulated human beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given that 5HC is a study in ambiguity it may be impossible to clearly\nprove from the text that Marsch is \"Victor\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd say that it's impossible to clearly prove much of anything from the text. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would say, though, \nthat on the basis of that same ambiguity that we should be similarly\nwary of being too certain that Victor is \"Marsch\". Exploring\nalternate theories and viewpoints may lead to a greater appreciation\nof the work. I believe that if we recognize that there is no concrete\nfoundation for knowing who the prisoner in cell 143 is at all we gain\na more robust idea of what Wolfe seems to be saying about the nature\nof identity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly didn't mean to imply that one should not explore various \nviewpoints. I wouldn't be a member of this list if I thought that way. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orikowarsky at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-27T22:06:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "<200607271747.34074.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/27/06, Daniel D Jones wrote:\nI think, if one considers the entire book and not just V.R.T, that there is a\ngreat deal of evidence that the abos did exist and were actual shape\nchangers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But only through the accretion of highly suspect circumstantial\nevidence. There is no direct observation of any of this stuff.\n\nIf we use Number 5's family as a \"control\" against which to measure\nMarsch and his interviewees, we find that disinterested citizens of\nthe Sisterworlds are either mystified or completely confused as to who\nthe abos are/were or what happened to them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Please remember as well that Wolfe tries not to play fast and loose\nwith the basic laws of physics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really? I guess I've been out of school too long. I had no idea that time\ntravel and certain peculiar types of black holes and white fountains and\nresurrections and all sorts of other things were now established as part of\nthe basic laws of physics. :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose I should have said that, as an engineer, he tries to keep\nhis sci-fi logically consistent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How long would the supposed abo\n\"worms\" have to be to contain the same amount of mass as the grown\nhumans they allegedly become?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it necessary that they immediately take on the aspect of humans?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you're saying they evolved up the species ladder from annelid to\nhumn in one generation? In \"A Story\" the Shadow Child describes a\nphantasmagoria of rapid metamophoses that seem to have more to do with\nan acid trip (or chewing on an alien plant) than what the abos are\notherwise described as being capable of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It, again, seems more reasonable to assume that this is a weird\nbigoted meme that has developed, either to dehumanize the abos for\npolitical, economic and legal reasons, or else to justify some kind of\nhuman-vs.-human massacre at the ford at Running Blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me much more reasonable, if that's your criteria, to assume that\nthere were in fact abos who simulated human beings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How so?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200607280620.34911.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-07-28T10:20:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday 27 July 2006 18:06, Ori Kowarsky wrote:\nOn 7/27/06, Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think, if one considers the entire book and not just V.R.T, that there\nis a great deal of evidence that the abos did exist and were actual shape\nchangers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But only through the accretion of highly suspect circumstantial\nevidence. There is no direct observation of any of this stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course not. It's a central issue of the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we use Number 5's family as a \"control\" against which to measure\nMarsch and his interviewees, we find that disinterested citizens of\nthe Sisterworlds are either mystified or completely confused as to who\nthe abos are/were or what happened to them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you find this surprising? How much knowledge and interest does the \naverage American have about the Native American Indians, who aren't on \nanother planet and who didn't simply disappear?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Please remember as well that Wolfe tries not to play fast and loose\nwith the basic laws of physics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Really? I guess I've been out of school too long. I had no idea that\ntime travel and certain peculiar types of black holes and white fountains\nand resurrections and all sorts of other things were now established as\npart of the basic laws of physics. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose I should have said that, as an engineer, he tries to keep\nhis sci-fi logically consistent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So he consistently allows shape-changers to gain or shed mass. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How long would the supposed abo\n\"worms\" have to be to contain the same amount of mass as the grown\nhumans they allegedly become?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is it necessary that they immediately take on the aspect of humans?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you're saying they evolved up the species ladder from annelid to\nhumn in one generation? In \"A Story\" the Shadow Child describes a\nphantasmagoria of rapid metamophoses that seem to have more to do with\nan acid trip (or chewing on an alien plant) than what the abos are\notherwise described as being capable of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly don't think they evolved in any sort of traditional sense of the \nword. But I also don't think they necessarily underwent an immediate \nmetamorphisis like a werewolf in a cheap horror flick.\n\nAnd the Shadow Children are, at the very least, quite confused. I suspect \nthat their stories are highly distorted versions of reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It, again, seems more reasonable to assume that this is a weird\nbigoted meme that has developed, either to dehumanize the abos for\npolitical, economic and legal reasons, or else to justify some kind of\nhuman-vs.-human massacre at the ford at Running Blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems to me much more reasonable, if that's your criteria, to assume\nthat there were in fact abos who simulated human beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How so?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the simplest and most logical answer which solves the most problems and \nleaves the fewest questions." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c6b270$dbaf7c30$6501a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-07-28T18:08:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"V.R.T.\" - April 24", "in_reply_to": "<200607280620.34911.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ori wrote (of Daniel D Jones and I):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Both of you object to the theory on the basis that the abos are known\nto be shapechangers. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not quite, but I'll get to that in a moment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This \"knowledge\" is based on hearsay." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And hearsay in a novel is a million times more significant than hearsay\nyou or I hear down the pub - because the author has deliberately chosen\nto put it in. As with Chekhov's Gun, if a good author includes a\nreference to an old legend or rumour in their story, we can be damn sure\nit has a bearing. If the author piles on such references, the way Wolfe\ndoes with shape-changing and mimicry in all three Fifth Head novellas,\nthen we know that something is definitely going on. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cassilla's \"aparent ability to look older at will\" is not something\nthat we know she is actually doing. We are supposing it because we,\nas readers, are filling in the blanks after reading something similar\nfrom Marsch's notes. It is actually more likely that she is being\nseen in an unflattering light after a long night." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Wolfe just happens to include such a meaningless scrap of\ndescriptive prose in a book chock-full of references to shape-changing\naliens? After we've been fed the very idea of abo women changing their\napparent age to influence men? I don't think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please remember as well that Wolfe tries not to play fast and loose\nwith the basic laws of physics. How long would the supposed abo\n\"worms\" have to be to contain the same amount of mass as the grown\nhumans they allegedly become? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you think VRT has to be a giant shape-changing worm in order to have\nreplaced Marsch, then I begin understand your reticence. :-) But who\nsaid anything about that? \n\nI said in my post that the abos have \"some sort of ability of mimicry\",\nand I meant just that. They're humans, or humanoids, with a very limited\nability to appear like other humans. There is some evidence to suggest\nthat a race of shape-changing beings also exist, or once existed, on St\nAnne, but that's a separate issue. The abos are mimics. Perhaps it's\nmuscle control, perhaps it's telepathy, but it's certainly nothing than\ncan be dismissed by invoking the laws of physics. \n\nAnd until it can be dismissed, it remains our best explanation of what\nhappened to Marsch. " } ] } ] }