Subject: (urth) "V.R.T." - April 24

From: ori kowarsky <orikowarsky at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:08:33 +0000

Hello all,I've just finsihed re-reading FHC and something leapt out at me which seemed worth delurking to explore (whether it will seem worthwhile to anyone else is another matter ...).It seems to me -- and forgive me if this has been raised before, but I couldn't find anything in the archives -- that the prisoner in cell 143 is John Marsch.  By which I mean the Earthman John Marsch.If you look chronologically at Marsch's entries from April 24 onwards what seems to be happening is a double-blending.  Something has happened to Marsch that  makes
him think that he's a half-abo boy named Victor;  once that
transference takes place "Victor" subsequently decides to "become"
"Marsch" because that's what marsch believes abos do.  It's as though water trapped in a container is being tipped first to the left and then to the right before attaining some kind of equilibrium.I'll first try to sketch out the "how" of it which will hopefully blend into the "why".1.  Shadow child influence.  One day before the transformation begins (but I would not say completes -- see below) Marsch is bitten on the hand by Victor's cat.  In "A Story", a very strange thing happens at the end, which is Eastwind is bitten (again, on the hand) by a Shadow child who tells him (and Sandwalker) that the bite will cause some kind of exchange of souls or perspectives.  Sandwalker then kills Eastwind -- or does he?  Because in "V.R.T." the abo who greets the colonists at Frenchman's Landing is named Eastwind.  The transference is first claimed to be accomplished by the narcotic inside the Shadow child's mouth, but later the Shadow child claims that the transference is based on personal belief -- ie. is psychosomatic.Now, I recognize that "A Story" is written by John/Victor and so it is debatable whether the story describes a)  an actual happening, b)  an actual legend, c)  is a thinly (V)eiled account of what happened to John/Victor in the back of the beyond or d)  is a complete red herring.  I would say, though, that the fact that "A Story" raises an unanswered question as to the true identity of the individual historically known as Eastwind, plus the fact that the exchange happens via a bite to the hand means that it is significant -- either as a description of one of the Shadow children's powers, a belief about the Shadow children's powers or as a sublimation of something psycholgical that has happened to Marsch.2.  Transference.I'm not a psycholgist, but it seems to me that there is sufficient pre-April 24 material to support the idea that even if there is no Shadow child magic going on, there is definitely evidence to support the idea that there is a psycholigcal transference that occurs in Marsch either as the result of the matrix of his personality/profession and environment (he has literally "gone native"), erotic tranference, or a combination of the two.3.  The missing months.Asuming that what Marsch later writes about the date (being June, not April) is correct, the process of double-blending occurs over a large space of time.  I would argue that during much of this period Victor is still alive and March is unknowingly assuming Victor's persona as they continue the exploration.  I believe that it is Victor who in fact died, either as the result of an accident  (as written) or somehow in the course of a botched seduction attempt by Marsch or else an attempt by Marsch to catch Victor with the suspected female abo.However it happens, Marsch experiences a complete personality breakdown in the immensity of the wilderness and comes to believe that he is Victor.  He then  must explain to himself why he a)  is alone and b) looks like Marsch,
and since he has been immersed in theories that the abos are shapeshifters who take on human form "Victor" becomes "Marsch".This is as far as I've gotten with the theory.  Again, if anyone has previously raised this I apologise for the redudancy and would love to be directed to any posts that outline its development.I would say, finally, that I believe that the Shdaow child in "A Story" -- whether he existed or not -- tells a fundamental truth about the colonization of St. Anne. There are no aliens.  There are no abos.  There are only humans who colonized St. Anne at different times and whose minds and bodies were colonzied by St. Anne in turn. It may be that the only true abo is the alien plant cud in the Shadow child's mouth.Ori  
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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:03:57 +0000

I don't know about others, but for me, Ori's  (orikowarsky at hotmail.com) 
post had the formatting so out of whack it was unreadable.  I cut and pasted 
his post here, reformatted; hopefully it will work better for all:

Hello all,I've just finsihed re-reading FHC and something leapt out at me 
which seemed worth delurking to explore (whether it will seem worthwhile to 
anyone else is another matter ...).It seems to me -- and forgive me if this 
has been raised before, but I couldn't find anything in the archives -- that 
the prisoner in cell 143 is John Marsch.  By which I mean the Earthman John 
Marsch.If you look chronologically at Marsch's entries from April 24 onwards 
what seems to be happening is a double-blending.  Something has happened to 
Marsch that  makes
him think that he's a half-abo boy named Victor;  once that
transference takes place "Victor" subsequently decides to "become"
"Marsch" because that's what marsch believes abos do.  It's as though water 
trapped in a container is being tipped first to the left and then to the 
right before attaining some kind of equilibrium.I'll first try to sketch out 
the "how" of it which will hopefully blend into the "why".1.  Shadow child 
influence.  One day before the transformation begins (but I would not say 
completes -- see below) Marsch is bitten on the hand by Victor's cat.  In "A 
Story", a very strange thing happens at the end, which is Eastwind is bitten 
(again, on the hand) by a Shadow child who tells him (and Sandwalker) that 
the bite will cause some kind of exchange of souls or perspectives.  
Sandwalker then kills Eastwind -- or does he?  Because in "V.R.T." the abo 
who greets the colonists at Frenchman's Landing is named Eastwind.  The 
transference is first claimed to be accomplished by the narcotic inside the 
Shadow child's mouth, but later the Shadow child claims that the 
transference is based on personal belief -- ie. is psychosomatic.Now, I 
recognize that "A Story" is written by John/Victor and so it is debatable 
whether the story describes a)  an actual happening, b)  an actual legend, 
c)  is a thinly (V)eiled account of what happened to John/Victor in the back 
of the beyond or d)  is a complete red herring.  I would say, though, that 
the fact that "A Story" raises an unanswered question as to the true 
identity of the individual historically known as Eastwind, plus the fact 
that the exchange happens via a bite to the hand means that it is 
significant -- either as a description of one of the Shadow children's 
powers, a belief about the Shadow children's powers or as a sublimation of 
something psycholgical that has happened to Marsch.2.  Transference.I'm not 
a psycholgist, but it seems to me that there is sufficient pre-April 24 
material to support the idea that even if there is no Shadow child magic 
going on, there is definitely evidence to support the idea that there is a 
psycholigcal transference that occurs in Marsch either as the result of the 
matrix of his personality/profession and environment (he has literally "gone 
native"), erotic tranference, or a combination of the two.3.  The missing 
months.Asuming that what Marsch later writes about the date (being June, not 
April) is correct, the process of double-blending occurs over a large space 
of time.  I would argue that during much of this period Victor is still 
alive and March is unknowingly assuming Victor's persona as they continue 
the exploration.  I believe that it is Victor who in fact died, either as 
the result of an accident  (as written) or somehow in the course of a 
botched seduction attempt by Marsch or else an attempt by Marsch to catch 
Victor with the suspected female abo.However it happens, Marsch experiences 
a complete personality breakdown in the immensity of the wilderness and 
comes to believe that he is Victor.  He then  must explain to himself why he 
a)  is alone and b) looks like Marsch,
and since he has been immersed in theories that the abos are shapeshifters 
who take on human form "Victor" becomes "Marsch".This is as far as I've 
gotten with the theory.  Again, if anyone has previously raised this I 
apologise for the redudancy and would love to be directed to any posts that 
outline its development.I would say, finally, that I believe that the Shdaow 
child in "A Story" -- whether he existed or not -- tells a fundamental truth 
about the colonization of St. Anne. There are no aliens.  There are no abos. 
  There are only humans who colonized St. Anne at different times and whose 
minds and bodies were colonzied by St. Anne in turn. It may be that the only 
true abo is the alien plant cud in the Shadow child's mouth.

Ori

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:44:04 +0000

On Tuesday 25 July 2006 15:08, ori kowarsky wrote:
> has been raised before, but I couldn't find anything in the archives --
> that the prisoner in cell 143 is John Marsch.  By which I mean the Earthman
> John Marsch.If you look chronologically at Marsch's entries from April 24
> onwards what seems to be happening is a double-blending.  Something has
> happened to Marsch that  makes him think that he's a half-abo boy named
> Victor;  once that
> right before attaining some kind of equilibrium.I'll first try to sketch
> out the "how" of it which will hopefully blend into the "why".1.  Shadow
> child influence.  One day before the transformation begins (but I would not
> say completes -- see below) Marsch is bitten on the hand by Victor's cat. 
> In "A Story", a very strange thing happens at the end, which is Eastwind is
> bitten (again, on the hand) by a Shadow child who tells him (and
> Sandwalker) that the bite will cause some kind of exchange of souls or
> perspectives.  Sandwalker then kills Eastwind -- or does he?  Because in
> "V.R.T." the abo who greets the colonists at Frenchman's Landing is named
> Eastwind.  The transference is first claimed to be accomplished by the
> narcotic inside the Shadow child's mouth, but later the Shadow child claims
> that the transference is based on personal belief -- ie. is
> psychosomatic.Now, I recognize that "A Story" is written by John/Victor and
> so it is debatable whether the story describes a)  an actual happening, b) 
> an actual legend, c)  is a thinly (V)eiled account of what happened to
> John/Victor in the back of the beyond or d)  is a complete red herring.  I
> would say, though, that the fact that "A Story" raises an unanswered
> question as to the true identity of the individual historically known as
> Eastwind, plus the fact that the exchange happens via a bite to the hand
> means that it is significant -- either as a description of one of the
> Shadow children's powers, a belief about the Shadow children's powers or as
> a sublimation of something psycholgical that has happened to Marsch.2. 
> Transference.I'm not a psycholgist, but it seems to me that there is
> sufficient pre-April 24 material to support the idea that even if there is
> no Shadow child magic going on, there is definitely evidence to support the
> idea that there is a psycholigcal transference that occurs in Marsch either
> as the result of the matrix of his personality/profession and environment
> (he has literally "gone native"), erotic tranference, or a combination of
> the two.3.  The missing months.Asuming that what Marsch later writes about
> the date (being June, not April) is correct, the process of double-blending
> occurs over a large space of time.  I would argue that during much of this
> period Victor is still alive and March is unknowingly assuming Victor's
> persona as they continue the exploration.  I believe that it is Victor who
> in fact died, either as the result of an accident  (as written) or somehow
> in the course of a botched seduction attempt by Marsch or else an attempt
> by Marsch to catch Victor with the suspected female abo.However it happens,
> Marsch experiences a complete personality breakdown in the immensity of the
> wilderness and comes to believe that he is Victor.  He then  must explain
> to himself why he a)  is alone and b) looks like Marsch, and since he has
> been immersed in theories that the abos are shapeshifters who take on human
> form "Victor" becomes "Marsch".This is as far as I've gotten with the
> theory.  Again, if anyone has previously raised this I apologise for the
> redudancy and would love to be directed to any posts that outline its
> development.I would say, finally, that I believe that the Shdaow child in
> "A Story" -- whether he existed or not -- tells a fundamental truth about
> the colonization of St. Anne. There are no aliens.  There are no abos. 
> minds and bodies were colonzied by St. Anne in turn. It may be that the
> only true abo is the alien plant cud in the Shadow child's mouth.Ori

I see very little evidence for the above suppositions.  I think that, with 
Wolfe, it's easy to get so wrapped up in uncovering clues and secrets that 
one starts to see things when there's nothing there.  I'm reminded of an old 
country song concerning a soldier with a deck of cards.  You can find the 
story here:

http://www.cowboylyrics.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=26725&t=26725

Clearly, there is no real relationship between a deck of cards and Christian 
theology.  But it's quite possible to construct an extensive and plausible 
link if one tries.  With a body of work as extensive and convoluted as 
Wolfe's, it's necessarily possible to find all sorts of links and connections 
that the author never intended.  I suspect that's the case with some of the 
more exotic and esoteric theories that are discussed here.

I think V.R.T is pretty clear - Marsch died and was replaced by Victor, who 
imitates him so well that he forgets that he's an imitation.  He becomes that 
which he imitates.  The same thing happens with the Face Dancer Tleilaxu in 
Herbert's later Dune books.

---

From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 19:08:16 +0000

Ori wrote:
>Something has happened to Marsch that makes
>him think that he's a half-abo boy named Victor...

The similarity of Marsch's bite and Eastwind's is very suggestive, I
agree, and something I've often wracked my brains over. 

However, my problem with your theory is the same problem I had with
earlier arguments which said that VRT was delusional and only thinks
that he has become Marsch: given so many hints that the abos have some
sort of ability of mimicry, doesn't it make more sense to assume that
Marsch *has* been replaced by an abo, rather than that he suffers from
the curious delusion that he has? If he's delusional, you have to find
an alternative explanation for Cassilla's apparent ability to look older
at will, and for that of VRT's mother, and for many, many other things.
Isn't it simpler to assume that abos can mimic and that this is what has
happened here? This is, after all, an SF novel. Such things are allowed.

Also, you're mistaken when you say that Eastwind was bitten on the hand,
as Marsch/VRT claims to be. Eastwind is bitten on the arm, so you're
starting off from a slightly wobblier premise than you might have
thought.

And finally, don't forget that we don't actually *know* that Marsch/VRT
was bitten by the cat at all. If VRT has physically replaced Marsch,
this was just a lie to explain the change in handwriting, and there is
no mystical cat-bite.

All that said, the whole Marsch-Victor-replacement-death thing is one of
the most maddeningly enigmatic parts of the whole book. The bite may
indeed have happened and may indeed be hugely significant. But I don't
think Marsch only thinks he is VRT.

Ori also wrote:
>There are no aliens.  There are no abos. 
>There are only humans who colonized St. Anne at different times
>and whose minds and bodies were colonzied by St. Anne in turn. 

Here I'm much in agreement with you. But while I think abos and humans
are of the same race, I'm not so sure about the Shadow Children. One of
the last things the Old Wise One says is that before men came "We were
mostly long, and lived between the roots of trees." And later: "Now I am
half a man, and know that we were always here... listening without
thought of our own to be men." But he leaves the matter ambiguous by
adding "or it may be that all are one stock." Thanks Gene.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 03:04:24 +0000

> Herbert's later Dune books.

I'm not sure he's replaced by Victor.

I think Victor dies, but the cat has already bitten Victor before it  
bites Marsh, and just as in "A Story" both of them are more or less  
resident in the same body by the end.  Maybe Victor is dominant.  The  
cat is therefore a Shadow Child.

Adam

---

From: ori kowarsky <orikowarsky at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:25:47 +0000

Thanks bsharp!  I had no idea my formatting was so off ...
 
Ori
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From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 18:11:45 +0000

> cat is therefore a Shadow Child.

Who (or what) is it that you think the Shadow Children are?

---

From: Ori Kowarsky <orikowarsky at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 18:24:56 +0000

Tony and Daniel,

Thank you for your comments.

Both of you object to the theory on the basis that the abos are known
to be shapechangers.  This "knowledge" is based on hearsay.  None of
the characters directly observes any instance of shapechanging.  The
ability of Victor's mother to change is something we hear about via a
man who has internalized an enormous amount of Annese folklore -- he
may be personalizing and regurgitating other people's stories.
Cassilla's "aparent ability to look older at will" is not something
that we know she is actually doing.    We are supposing it because we,
as readers, are filling in the blanks after reading something similar
from Marsch's notes.  It is actually more likely that she is being
seen in an unflattering light after a long night.

Please remember as well that Wolfe tries not to play fast and loose
with the basic laws of physics.  How long would the supposed abo
"worms" have to be to contain the same amount of mass as the grown
humans they allegedly become?

There is similar confusion within the text about abos and tools.
Weaving nets and using them to catch fish obviously requires greater
manual dexterity than using a shovel, and about as much manual
dexterity as using a pen.  (I would point out that here on Earth we
know certain primates use twigs to "shovel" out a spoonful of ants but
zoologists would flip if a chimpanzee started drift-fishing with
self-braided nets).  The idea that there is some kind of Voight-Kampff
test to separate the abos from the humans on the basis of tool use
makes no sense in the context of what people tell us about the abos --
it's like they say "x" and then in the same paragraph say "not x".
It, again, seems more reasonable to assume that this is a weird
bigoted meme that has developed, either to dehumanize the abos for
political, economic and legal reasons, or else to justify some kind of
human-vs.-human massacre at the ford at Running Blood.

Given that 5HC is a study in ambiguity it may be impossible to clearly
prove from the text that Marsch is "Victor".  I would say, though,
that on the basis of that same ambiguity that we should be similarly
wary of being too certain that Victor is "Marsch".  Exploring
alternate theories and viewpoints may lead to a greater appreciation
of the work.  I believe that if we recognize that there is no concrete
foundation for knowing who the prisoner in cell 143 is at all we gain
a more robust idea of what Wolfe seems to be saying about the nature
of identity.

Ori

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:31:24 +0000

> Who (or what) is it that you think the Shadow Children are?

Inhumu.  So I misspoke when I called the abos inhumu, or rather I  
meant the subset of the aboriginal peoples who are the Shadow Children.

Um, maybe.  The book is a little baffling.

Adam

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:47:33 +0000

> seen in an unflattering light after a long night.

I think, if one considers the entire book and not just V.R.T, that there is a 
great deal of evidence that the abos did exist and were actual shape 
changers. 

> with the basic laws of physics.  

Really?  I guess I've been out of school too long.  I had no idea that time 
travel and certain peculiar types of black holes and white fountains and 
resurrections and all sorts of other things were now established as part of 
the basic laws of physics. :-)

> How long would the supposed abo 

Is it necessary that they immediately take on the aspect of humans?

> it's like they say "x" and then in the same paragraph say "not x".

An interesting point that I'd not considered.  

> human-vs.-human massacre at the ford at Running Blood.

It seems to me much more reasonable, if that's your criteria, to assume that 
there were in fact abos who simulated human beings.

> prove from the text that Marsch is "Victor".  

I'd say that it's impossible to clearly prove much of anything from the text.  

> I would say, though, 

I certainly didn't mean to imply that one should not explore various 
viewpoints.  I wouldn't be a member of this list if I thought that way.

---

From: Ori Kowarsky <orikowarsky at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 22:06:04 +0000

> great deal of evidence that the abos did exist and were actual shape

But only through the accretion of highly suspect circumstantial
evidence.  There is no direct observation of any of this stuff.

If we use Number 5's family as a "control" against which to measure
Marsch and his interviewees, we find that disinterested citizens of
the Sisterworlds are either mystified or completely confused as to who
the abos are/were or what happened to them.

> the basic laws of physics. :-)

I suppose I should have said that, as an engineer, he tries to keep
his sci-fi logically consistent.

> Is it necessary that they immediately take on the aspect of humans?

So you're saying they evolved up the species ladder from annelid to
humn in one generation?  In "A Story" the Shadow Child describes a
phantasmagoria of rapid metamophoses that seem to have more to do with
an acid trip (or chewing on an alien plant) than what the abos are
otherwise described as being capable of.

> there were in fact abos who simulated human beings.

How so?

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 10:20:34 +0000

On Thursday 27 July 2006 18:06, Ori Kowarsky wrote:
> > I think, if one considers the entire book and not just V.R.T, that there
> > is a great deal of evidence that the abos did exist and were actual shape
> > changers.
>

Of course not.  It's a central issue of the book.

> the abos are/were or what happened to them.

Why do you find this surprising?  How much knowledge and interest does the 
average American have about the Native American Indians, who aren't on 
another planet and who didn't simply disappear?

> > Really?  I guess I've been out of school too long.  I had no idea that
> > time travel and certain peculiar types of black holes and white fountains
> > and resurrections and all sorts of other things were now established as
> > part of the basic laws of physics. :-)
>

So he consistently allows shape-changers to gain or shed mass. :-)

> otherwise described as being capable of.

I certainly don't think they evolved in any sort of traditional sense of the 
word.  But I also don't think they necessarily underwent an immediate 
metamorphisis like a werewolf in a cheap horror flick.

And the Shadow Children are, at the very least, quite confused.  I suspect 
that their stories are highly distorted versions of reality.

> > It seems to me much more reasonable, if that's your criteria, to assume
> > that there were in fact abos who simulated human beings.
>
> How so?

It's the simplest and most logical answer which solves the most problems and 
leaves the fewest questions.

---

From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 18:08:41 +0000

Ori wrote (of Daniel D Jones and I):
>to be shapechangers.  

Not quite, but I'll get to that in a moment.

>This "knowledge" is based on hearsay.

And hearsay in a novel is a million times more significant than hearsay
you or I hear down the pub - because the author has deliberately chosen
to put it in. As with Chekhov's Gun, if a good author includes a
reference to an old legend or rumour in their story, we can be damn sure
it has a bearing. If the author piles on such references, the way Wolfe
does with shape-changing and mimicry in all three Fifth Head novellas,
then we know that something is definitely going on. 

>seen in an unflattering light after a long night.

And Wolfe just happens to include such a meaningless scrap of
descriptive prose in a book chock-full of references to shape-changing
aliens? After we've been fed the very idea of abo women changing their
apparent age to influence men? I don't think so.

>humans they allegedly become? 

If you think VRT has to be a giant shape-changing worm in order to have
replaced Marsch, then I begin understand your reticence. :-) But who
said anything about that? 

I said in my post that the abos have "some sort of ability of mimicry",
and I meant just that. They're humans, or humanoids, with a very limited
ability to appear like other humans. There is some evidence to suggest
that a race of shape-changing beings also exist, or once existed, on St
Anne, but that's a separate issue. The abos are mimics. Perhaps it's
muscle control, perhaps it's telepathy, but it's certainly nothing than
can be dismissed by invoking the laws of physics. 

And until it can be dismissed, it remains our best explanation of what
happened to Marsch.