{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4675", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4675, "subject": "DisingenUous Gene", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2006-07-26T17:13:33+00:00", "last": "2006-07-26T18:20:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-26T17:13:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) DisingenUous Gene", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My bad on initial subject misspelling. Actually I feel priggish and petty \nfor pursuing this thread futher but..well..maybe it is useful.\n\nDan'l quotes from Castle of the Otter:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe states plainly: A thing's name states what it is. I guess that's my \nbottom line; he makes a >firm rule like this, puts it in print, and then \nignores it _only_ for naming worlds?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it requires interpretation and no, the exception is not only for \nnaming worlds/universes. I've already noted how Wolfe makes little attempt \nto match a BotNS characters' saintly name to the namesake Catholic saint. \nHe doesn't choose any old saint name though, only archaic names. This says \nto me, if he is following his onomastic rule, that the names denote this \npopulation as an ancient group of humans with a special relationship to a \nJesus-like character. A world where names like Robert and Marie and Kim Lee \nSoong don't fit.\n\nLet's take monsters; Wolfe says that in BotNS he gave monsters monster \nnames. So, take Typhon, the hundred headed, fire belching Greek monster, \nson of Gaia and Tartaros, nephew of Erebus, brother/husband of Echidna. Is \nthat Typhon our Typhon? Or were the names Typhon, Erebus and Echidna picked \nfrom mythology as a nice match?\n\nI don't know if Briah and Yesod were meant to be parallel or in series but I \nlike whichever fits the broader pattern of the text. Kaballah says \nparallel, the text (to me) says series but perhaps this is not a crucial \nquestion.\n\nIt is this part of Dan'l's post which really perturbs me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More than anything else, I think it's a matter of not wanting to give the \ngame away -- he has >repeatedly claimed that everything we need to know is \nthere, and he doesn't want to tell the >answers. I think he sometimes takes \nthis to frustrating levels: no, I don't believe he ever\nactually _lies_, but I believe he sometimes responds in ways that ...how \nshall I put it? ... use the >truth in misleading ways." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can understand Wolfe not wanting to give answers away but why would he \ndeliberately mislead readers to a false answer? Perhaps you are suggesting \nit isn't intentional? That he is so vigilant on avoiding disclosure that he \naccidentally goes too far the other way?\n\nThis next Lawrence Person interview clip offers contrary evidence (and is \ngermaine to Ori's post I think):\n\nWhen asked how he fit into the \"New Wave\" of SF writers, Wolfe responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: Of course, I did do the rather tricky thing, which I suppose is New \nWave, of having one of >the characters in one of the other stories as the \npurported author of, a, aggh...I'm sorry, I've lost >the titles of my own \nstories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LP: \"'A Story,' by John V. Marsch.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: \"'A Story,' by John V. Marsch,\" yes, which is not actually written by \nJohn V. Marsch, but by >the shadowchild who has replaced John V. Marsch. \n(laughs) That's New Wave." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems a very candid revelation on an ambiguous text issue. If he \nmisleading us about the shadowchild replacement all I can ask is.... Why? \nSo those who aren't sure will guess wrong? So those who guess correctly will \ndoubt themselves? I just don't get it.\n\n- bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607261120r510dfd56x73ca124b1de53da6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-26T18:20:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) DisingenUous Gene", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l quotes from Castle of the Otter:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe states plainly: A thing's name states what it is. I guess that's my\nbottom line; he makes a >firm rule like this, puts it in print, and then\nignores it _only_ for naming worlds?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it requires interpretation" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and no, the exception is not only for\nnaming worlds/universes. I've already noted how Wolfe makes little attempt\nto match a BotNS characters' saintly name to the namesake Catholic saint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect that he _does_ but that we haven't worked out the\nrelationships yet. I'm certainly not familiar enough with the\nancient saints to do this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He doesn't choose any old saint name though, only archaic names. This says\nto me, if he is following his onomastic rule, that the names denote this\npopulation as an ancient group of humans with a special relationship to a\nJesus-like character. A world where names like Robert and Marie and Kim\nLee Soong don't fit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yes, but also because he is deliberately choosing names that will\nbe _unfamiliar_ to us, just as he deliberately uses perfectly good but\nunfamiliar English words to create a sense of alienness (a technique\nused rather differently by Stephen Donaldson in his \"Covenant\" books)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let's take monsters; Wolfe says that in BotNS he gave monsters monster\nnames. So, take Typhon, the hundred headed, fire belching Greek monster,\nson of Gaia and Tartaros, nephew of Erebus, brother/husband of Echidna. Is\nthat Typhon our Typhon?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No; but he's certainly go thte extra head, and is certainly a monster and\nthe father of monsters. I suspect that an argument could be made for\n\"fire belching\" also being symbolically significant.\n\nBrother/husband of Echidna? Well, husband certainly, and sibs in that\nthey share the same electronic womb on the _Whorl_.\n\nWhich creates an interesting question regarding his other relations,\ndoesn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or were the names Typhon, Erebus and Echidna picked\nfrom mythology as a nice match?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A nice match, yes, but a symbolically significant one as well. In\nother words, it says more about \"what the thing is\" than simply\n\"it's a monster.\"\n\nAnd by that logic, \"Briah\" and \"Yesod\" say more than \"these are\nuniverses\" (or sephiroth or whatever)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is this part of Dan'l's post which really perturbs me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "More than anything else, I think it's a matter of not wanting to give the\ngame away -- he has repeatedly claimed that everything we need to know\nis there, and he doesn't want to tell the answers. I think he sometimes\ntakes this to frustrating levels: no, I don't believe he ever actually _lies_,\nbut I believe he sometimes responds in ways that ...how shall I put it? ...\nuse the truth in misleading ways." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can understand Wolfe not wanting to give answers away but why would he\ndeliberately mislead readers to a false answer? Perhaps you are suggesting\nit isn't intentional? That he is so vigilant on avoiding disclosure that he\naccidentally goes too far the other way?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is _exactly_ what I am suggesting. As I said, he does not deliberately\nlie. To deliberately mislead with the truth is a kind of lie, unless of course\nyou're a Jesuit; but to tell a partial truth in hope of leaving something\nambiguous can have unintended consequences. I suggest that is what\nis going on, nothing more.\n\nThus when you quote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: \"'A Story,' by John V. Marsch,\" yes, which is not actually written by\nJohn V. Marsch, but by >the shadowchild who has replaced John V. Marsch.\n(laughs) That's New Wave." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This seems a very candid revelation on an ambiguous text issue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't believe there is any deliberate misleading going on here. It is\nbarely possible that, speaking in a casual and relaxed format (as he\nclearly is here) he may have slipped (as indeed he couldn't remember\nthe title of the story, other details may have slipped his mind), but a\nserious substantial argument would have to be made to convince me.\n\nBesides, it makes more thematic sense for the shadowchildren to be\nreal; one of the many things _5HC_ is about, after all, is colonialism\nand postcolonialism." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] } ] }