{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4676", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4676, "subject": "Saint names", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2006-07-27T12:29:23+00:00", "last": "2006-07-27T17:04:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-27T12:29:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint names", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suspect that he _does_ [have a purpose in his choice of saint names] but \nthat we haven't >worked out the relationships yet. I'm certainly not \nfamiliar enough with the ancient saints to do this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Using the internet I've been able to explore the lives of some saints. There \nare a lot of convenient sites available. This one provides a thumbnail \nsketch of each-\nhttp://www.catholic-forum.com/Saints/patron02.htm- and there are sites \nwhich go into greater detail for each saint.\n\nI've perused the main characters in BotNS and the only clear (to me) \nparallels I've found are that Saint Dorcas was resurrected and Saint Thecla \nwore men's clothing to avoid being molested as she travelled with Paul. I \nam interested in any further connections people can find.\n\n(I'll note that, like Dorcas in BotNS, Saint Thecla sat in a window, but \nmaybe that is an incidental connection? you could drive yourself crazy with \nthose)\n\nSince Gene Wolfe wrote BotNS pre-Internet, I have to imagine he wrote \nthinking people would have only The Catholic Encyclopedia and other \ninconvenient sources to interpret his work and didn't make the references \nhopelessly obscure and impenetrable. What purpose in that?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-27T13:49:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint names", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, the link in the previous post got an extra hyphen in it, rendering it \nworthless. This link should work:\n\nhttp://www.catholic-forum.com/Saints/patron02.htm\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607271004u473c93e2t6c82592f6c496e79@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-27T17:04:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Saint names", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/27/06, b sharp wrote:\nDan'l writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suspect that he _does_ [have a purpose in his choice of saint names] but\nthat we haven't >worked out the relationships yet. I'm certainly not\nfamiliar enough with the ancient saints to do this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Using the internet I've been able to explore the lives of some saints. There\nare a lot of convenient sites available. This one provides a thumbnail\nsketch of each-\nhttp://www.catholic-forum.com/Saints/patron02.htm- and there are sites\nwhich go into greater detail for each saint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmm. I see some interesting things.\n\nOne St. Severian was a martyr whose flesh was torn off his body\nwith iron rakes - i.e., tortured to death. He was a Roman Senator,\nwhich may be relevant to Severian's governmental connections.\n\n(Interestingly, another St. Severian was also tortured to death, but\nhe was canonized well after GW wrote tBotNS.)\n\nPalaemon and Gurloes were monastic leaders. (Hermit community\nin the case of P.) Malrubius was a monastic, founder of a church,\nand a martyr.\n\nVodalus was a missionary and a miracle-worker, and, interestingly,\nnot a miracle-worker.\n\nAgia and Agilus, interestingly, are both French. I find myself wondering\nif Wolfe used any kind of pattern regarding where the various saints\ncame from..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since Gene Wolfe wrote BotNS pre-Internet, I have to imagine he wrote\nthinking people would have only The Catholic Encyclopedia and other\ninconvenient sources to interpret his work and didn't make the references\nhopelessly obscure and impenetrable. What purpose in that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think he particularly expected people to \"get\" this stuff: but he's\nwriting, among other things, very clearly in the shadow of the great\nHigh Modernists, Joyce and Proust. Proust provides the fascination with\nmemory; Joyce, the joy in putting in obscure details and patterns for\nhis own amusement. The Joycean play isn't intended for us so much\nas for himself.\n\nAt least, that's how I see it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] } ] }