{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4680", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4680, "subject": "shapeshifter hearsay", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2006-07-31T17:53:23+00:00", "last": "2006-08-01T18:04:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-31T17:53:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifter hearsay", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tony Ellis writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And hearsay in a novel is a million times more significant than hearsay you \nor I hear down the pub - >because the author has deliberately chosen to put \nit in. As with Chekhov's Gun, if a good author >includes a reference to an \nold legend or rumour in their story, we can be damn sure\nit has a bearing. If the author piles on such references, the way Wolfe \ndoes with shape-changing >and mimicry in all three Fifth Head novellas, \nthen we know that something is definitely going on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does the same principle apply to the circumstantial evidence for \nshapeshifters in BotNS? Do they exist on Urth?\n(no I will NOT mention the Piteous Gate ;-) )\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607311109j221d4c79g1933797f9d68ca61@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-31T18:09:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifter hearsay", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And hearsay in a novel is a million times more significant than\nhearsay you or I hear down the pub - >because the author\nhas deliberately chosen to put it in. As with Chekhov's Gun, if\na good author includes a reference to an old legend or rumour\nin their story, we can be damn sure it has a bearing. If the\nauthor piles on such references, the way Wolfe does with\nshape-changing and mimicry in all three Fifth Head novellas,\nthen we know that something is definitely going on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and b responds:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does the same principle apply to the circumstantial evidence for\nshapeshifters in BotNS? Do they exist on Urth?\n(no I will NOT mention the Piteous Gate ;-) )" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, the same principle applies. However, I think Tony may be\noverstating the power of the principle; or perhaps I'm misreading\nhim. As he says, \"...something is definitely going on.\" However,\nit is too much to say, simply from this principle, that\n\"shape-changing and mimicry\" \"is definitely going on.\" (Though\nI do believe that there's enogh evidence in 5HC that, indeed,\nthere are shapechangers.) Rather, _something_ is going on\nthat makes shape-changing and mimicry deeply important in\nthat book.\n\nDo shapechangers exist on Urth, then?\n\nHowinole should I know?\n\nBut mimicry -- especially memory-based mimicry -- is going on\nall over the place, and disguises of various sorts are rampant\nthroughout the Book of the New Sun and its various sequelae.\n\nIn my never sufficiently humble opinion, it's clear to me that\nidentity is one of Wolfe's major themes, not only here but in all\nhis major work since 5HC, and that memory, mimicry,\nshape-changing, disguises, cloning, and many other things that\ngo on in those major works are all aspects, or subthemes if\nyou will, of this supertheme." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c6b594$ff5e1160$6501a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-08-01T18:04:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifter hearsay", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607311109j221d4c79g1933797f9d68ca61@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\nYes, the same principle applies. However, I think Tony may be\noverstating the power of the principle; or perhaps I'm misreading\nhim. As he says, \"...something is definitely going on.\" However,\nit is too much to say, simply from this principle, that\n\"shape-changing and mimicry\" \"is definitely going on.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are slightly misreading me, I think, or more likely I wasn't being\nas clear as I thought I was, as I thought I was being very careful *not*\nto say \"because there's so much hearsay, we know that shape-changing and\nmimicry are definitely going on.\" There are far more concrete reasons to\nbelieve the Annese are mimics.\n\nMy only points were that (a) Annese shape-shifting/mimicry can't be\n*dismissed* just because it's hearsay, and that (b) the sheer volume of\nthis hearsay should warn us that something important is being\ncommunicated.\n\nExactly what that 'something' is we can argue about indefinitely, and\nknowing this list we no doubt shall. My own take on it is that we are\nsimply being told \"the myth that the Annese could change their shape is\ntoo widespread not to have some basis in reality.\"" } ] } ] }