Subject: (urth) shapeshifter hearsay

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 17:53:23 +0000

Tony Ellis writes:

>And hearsay in a novel is a million times more significant than hearsay you 
>or I hear down the pub - >because the author has deliberately chosen to put 
>it in. As with Chekhov's Gun, if a good author >includes a reference to an 
>old legend or rumour in their story, we can be damn sure
>it has a bearing. If the author piles on such references, the way Wolfe 
>does with shape-changing >and mimicry in all three Fifth Head novellas, 
>then we know that something is definitely going on.

Does the same principle apply to the circumstantial evidence for 
shapeshifters in BotNS? Do they exist on Urth?
(no I will NOT mention the Piteous Gate ;-) )

-bsharp

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:09:32 +0000

> >And hearsay in a novel is a million times more significant than
> >hearsay you or I hear down the pub - >because the author
> >has deliberately chosen to put it in. As with Chekhov's Gun, if
> >a good author includes a reference to an old legend or rumour
> >in their story, we can be damn sure it has a bearing. If the
> >author piles on such references, the way Wolfe does with
> >shape-changing and mimicry in all three Fifth Head novellas,

> (no I will NOT mention the Piteous Gate ;-) )

Yes, the same principle applies. However, I think Tony may be
overstating the power of the principle; or perhaps I'm misreading
him. As he says, "...something is definitely going on." However,
it is too much to say, simply from this principle, that
"shape-changing and mimicry" "is definitely going on." (Though
I do believe that there's enogh evidence in 5HC that, indeed,
there are shapechangers.) Rather, _something_ is going on
that makes shape-changing and mimicry deeply important in
that book.

Do shapechangers exist on Urth, then?

Howinole should I know?

But mimicry -- especially memory-based mimicry -- is going on
all over the place, and disguises of various sorts are rampant
throughout the Book of the New Sun and its various sequelae.

In my never sufficiently humble opinion, it's clear to me that
identity is one of Wolfe's major themes, not only here but in all
his major work since 5HC, and that memory, mimicry,
shape-changing, disguises, cloning, and many other things that
go on in those major works are all aspects, or subthemes if
you will, of this supertheme.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.
However, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the
characters." -- Stephen R. Donaldson

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From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 18:04:56 +0000

Dan'l wrote:
>"shape-changing and mimicry" "is definitely going on."

You are slightly misreading me, I think, or more likely I wasn't being
as clear as I thought I was, as I thought I was being very careful *not*
to say "because there's so much hearsay, we know that shape-changing and
mimicry are definitely going on." There are far more concrete reasons to
believe the Annese are mimics.

My only points were that (a) Annese shape-shifting/mimicry can't be
*dismissed* just because it's hearsay, and that (b) the sheer volume of
this hearsay should warn us that something important is being
communicated.

Exactly what that 'something' is we can argue about indefinitely, and
knowing this list we no doubt shall. My own take on it is that we are
simply being told "the myth that the Annese could change their shape is
too widespread not to have some basis in reality."