{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4685", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4685, "subject": "Hieros", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2006-08-09T13:16:26+00:00", "last": "2006-08-11T03:49:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-09T13:16:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hieros", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey takes me to task for using the abbreviation \"Hieros\" to refer \ncollectively to the groups named Hierogrammates, their larvae the Hierarchs \nand their servants, the Hierodules. This is a convention used by others in \nthis archive (see Dan'l's most recent post) but Roy has a point. The term \n\"Hiero\" is used by Tzadkiel and Apheta to refer specifically to the human \ncognate race which produced the other three (although Roy, your page \nreferences never match up to my edition). I'm not sure what a good \nsubstitute abbreviation might be- Hiero-'s H x3's? HHH's?\n\nIn his recent posts Roy finds explanation for the origin of the HHH's in \nUrth and then in Malrubius' \"secret of the Universe\" speech to Severian in \nCitadel. These are the most explicit explanations but I find Cyriaca's \nstory in Sword also to be relevant. Her story comes from her...uncle's book \nwhich hasn't been opened in a chilliad, but she assumes everyone knows parts \nof it anyway (they don't).\n\nIn her story, humanity expands across the galaxy and evolves into non-animal \nentities. These entities create servants which seem to be \nmachines/robots/computers of some sort (\"thinking engines\"). The servants \nturn on their creators and give them back their animalistic nature by \nintroducing artifacts and knowledge from their past, and by assigning each \nhuman a sort of guardian presence that no other human can see or hear to \nprovide knowledge.\n\nIsn't this exactly what the hierodules, Barbatus, Famulimus and Ossipago do? \n They give Baldanders artifacts and knowledge. They give Severian a \npersonal \"Malrubius\" (and Triskele) to guide him. (I'll note that the old \nautarch, Appian, seems to have been given a similar aquastor from his past, \nPaeon; Gurloes and perhaps some others have invisible presences they talk \nto...).\n\nRoy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"holy slaves\" (of which Barbatus and Famulimus are examples) were a \nrace of beings\ncreated by the Hierogrammates to serve them in Briah. (URTH, 36) They are\nnot humans, as their living quarters on Tzadkiel's Ship clearly shows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But, Malrubius' story says the \"created beings\" escaped to Yesod then had to \nlook back to Briah to find (not create) the Hierodules (and humanity). I \nnotice Roy doesn't include Ossipago in his examples of Hierodules. There \nare suggestions that Ossipago is a machine (deus ex machina, lol). So, \nmaybe some of the created beings/machines from Cyriaca's story escaped to \nYesod, becoming Hierarchs/grammates while some stayed behind?\n\nTo me a way to reconcile all these conflicting accounts is to suggest there \nare two sorts of Hierodules. There is the original machine kind that \noriginated in Briah, like Ossipago and there is the more fleshly but angelic \nkind like Barbatus and Famulimus who were created in Yesod and sent back. I \nthink this interpretation jibes with all three sources of information, Urth, \nMalrubius and Cyriaca. It also explains why Famulimus and Barbatus are \nstuck in backwards time, in Briah, while Ossipago isn't.\n\nIn Judeo-Christianity, the angels are set in a hierarchy. There are \narchangels and lower angels. Lofty Seraphim and lowly Cherubim. \nInterestingly, the Cherubim are said to have four faces. And Famulimus \nhas..let's see, only three? \nNo...stop....must........not........over-........read........\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c6bc48$5e590f80$0b3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-10T06:43:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hieros", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\n(although Roy, your page\nreferences never match up to my edition)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really? Unless otherwise specified, when I give page numbers they are for\nthe original edition, which is usually the hardback; otherwise I indicate\nthe chapter. The book in question here is URTH. I was citing the page\nnumbers in the TOR hardback, which is the same edition cited by\nAndre-Driussi and Borski in their respective books. A sampling of their\nrelevant citations all agree with my copy. As it happens, the pagination of\nthe TOR mass market paperback is also the same as in the hardback." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The \"holy slaves\" (of which Barbatus and Famulimus are examples) were a\nrace of beings\ncreated by the Hierogrammates to serve them in Briah. (URTH, 36) They are\nnot humans, as their living quarters on Tzadkiel's Ship clearly shows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But, Malrubius' story says the \"created beings\" escaped to Yesod then had\nto look back to Briah to find (not create) the Hierodules (and humanity)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The exact quote is: \"The Hierodules they [the Hierogrammates] have found\ntoo, and formed more quickly, to serve them in this universe.\" (CITADEL,\nchapter XXXIV)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-11T03:49:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hieros", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6bc48$5e590f80$0b3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding this exchange:\nRoy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"holy slaves\" (of which Barbatus and Famulimus are examples) were a \nrace of beings\ncreated by the Hierogrammates to serve them in Briah. (URTH, 36) They are\nnot humans, as their living quarters on Tzadkiel's Ship clearly shows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "bsharp says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But, Malrubius' story says the \"created beings\" escaped to Yesod then had\nto look back to Briah to find (not create) the Hierodules (and humanity)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The exact quote is: \"The Hierodules they [the Hierogrammates] have found\ntoo, and formed more quickly, to serve them in this universe.\" (CITADEL, \nchapter XXXIV)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy is right of course, as always, but at the risk of hairsplitting I'll \nnote it seems the Hierodules were found then (re) formed in Briah rather \nthan created in Yesod from scratch. They already existed in Briah in some \ncapacity. All the similar statements I find in the text use the word \n\"shape\" instead of \"create\", which may be a purposeful distinction.\n\nI still think Cyriaca's story is important. Searching the archives, I find \nonly Tony Ellis in one post \n(http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0029/0151.shtml) suggests he agrees with \nme that Cyriaca's story has something to do with the Hierogrammates, \nHierodules, etc.\n\nIn her story, people had thoughts they put behind them because \"they could \nnot be written in numbers\". Sounds like digital intelligence to me (and the \nbasis for Long Sun Gods?). Anyway, the machines in question, as mentioned \nbefore, do very Hierodule-like things like disseminating knowledge, \nartifacts and aquastors and impacting human development.\n\nCyriaca's story about the creation of these thinking machines takes place \nduring empire building which stated to be part of Urth's and Severian's \npast. Malrubius' story also describes an empire building era as the time \nthe Hiero race created the Hierogrammates who escaped to Yesod.\n\nNow, as Roy notes, Apheta and Tzadkiel think their Hierarch/grammate race \nwill be produced by the humans of Ushas. Are we to think that the peaceful \npriest of The Sleeper or the gentle Green Man produce an Ushas population \nwho forge another bloody, galactic human empire and for whom \"Uncountable \nbillions suffered and died under their guiding hands, leaving ineradicable \nmemories of pain and blood\"? So much for incremental improvement.\n\nThat doesn't seem right to me. Could Tzadkiel (of Yesod planet) be wrong? \nHe/she certainly isn't omnicient, since Severian has to keep explaining \nstuff to Tzadkiel versions from giantess to tinker bell, each time. Well, \nwe know there is an even higher power at work.\n\nMaybe the Hierodules were produced in Severian's past by (not yet fully \nformed in Wolfe's mind) empire-creating Whorls. Perhaps these are the \ndigital intelligences of Cyriaca's story. Some hierodules escaped to Yesod \nto become Hierogrammates, of whom one (Tzadkiel) returned to Briah to shape \nthe remaining Hierodules he/she found into tools to reform the now legendary \nUrth.\n\nWell, that's my best attempt as synthesis for now, in lieu of throwing up my \nhands screaming \"time paradox\"\n\n-bsharp" } ] } ] }