Subject: (urth) Hieros

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:16:26 +0000

Roy C. Lackey takes me to task for using the abbreviation "Hieros" to refer 
collectively to the groups named Hierogrammates, their larvae the Hierarchs 
and their servants, the Hierodules.  This is a convention used by others in 
this archive (see Dan'l's most recent post) but Roy has a point.  The term 
"Hiero" is used  by Tzadkiel and Apheta to refer specifically to the human 
cognate race which produced the other three (although Roy, your page 
references never match up to my edition).  I'm not sure what a good 
substitute abbreviation might be-  Hiero-'s  H x3's?  HHH's?

In his recent posts Roy finds explanation for the origin of the HHH's  in 
Urth and then in Malrubius' "secret of the Universe" speech to Severian in 
Citadel.  These are the most explicit explanations but I find Cyriaca's 
story in Sword also to be relevant.  Her story comes from her...uncle's book 
which hasn't been opened in a chilliad, but she assumes everyone knows parts 
of it anyway (they don't).

In her story, humanity expands across the galaxy and evolves into non-animal 
entities.  These entities create servants which seem to be 
machines/robots/computers of some sort ("thinking engines").  The servants 
turn on their creators and give them back their animalistic nature by 
introducing artifacts and knowledge from their past, and by assigning each 
human a sort of guardian presence that no other human can see or hear to 
provide knowledge.

Isn't this exactly what the hierodules, Barbatus, Famulimus and Ossipago do? 
  They give Baldanders artifacts and knowledge. They give Severian a 
personal "Malrubius" (and Triskele) to guide him. (I'll note that the old 
autarch, Appian, seems to have been given a similar aquastor from his past, 
Paeon;  Gurloes and perhaps some others have invisible presences they talk 
to...).

Roy says:
>The "holy slaves" (of which Barbatus and Famulimus are examples) were a 
>race of beings
>created by the Hierogrammates to serve them in Briah. (URTH, 36) They are
>not humans, as their living quarters on Tzadkiel's Ship clearly shows.

But, Malrubius' story says the "created beings" escaped to Yesod then had to 
look back to Briah to find (not create) the Hierodules (and humanity).  I 
notice Roy doesn't include Ossipago in his examples of Hierodules.  There 
are suggestions that Ossipago is a machine (deus ex machina, lol).  So, 
maybe some of the created beings/machines from Cyriaca's story escaped to 
Yesod, becoming Hierarchs/grammates while some stayed behind?

To me a way to reconcile all these conflicting accounts is to suggest there 
are two sorts of Hierodules.  There is the original machine kind that 
originated in Briah, like Ossipago and there is the more fleshly but angelic 
kind like Barbatus and Famulimus who were created in Yesod and sent back.  I 
think this interpretation jibes with all three sources of information, Urth, 
Malrubius and Cyriaca.  It also explains why Famulimus and Barbatus are 
stuck in backwards time, in Briah, while Ossipago isn't.

In Judeo-Christianity, the angels are set in a hierarchy. There are 
archangels and lower angels.  Lofty Seraphim and lowly Cherubim. 
Interestingly, the Cherubim are said to have four faces. And Famulimus 
has..let's see, only three? 
No...stop....must........not........over-........read........

-bsharp

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 06:43:57 +0000

b sharp wrote:
> (although Roy, your page
>references never match up to my edition).

Really? Unless otherwise specified, when I give page numbers they are for
the original edition, which is usually the hardback; otherwise I indicate
the chapter. The book in question here is URTH. I was citing the page
numbers in the TOR hardback, which is the same edition cited by
Andre-Driussi and Borski in their respective books. A sampling of their
relevant citations all agree with my copy. As it happens, the pagination of
the TOR mass market paperback is also the same as in the hardback.

>But, Malrubius' story says the "created beings" escaped to Yesod then had
>to look back to Briah to find (not create) the Hierodules (and humanity).

The exact quote is: "The Hierodules they [the Hierogrammates] have found
too, and formed more quickly, to serve them in this universe." (CITADEL,
chapter XXXIV)

-Roy

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 03:49:14 +0000

Regarding this exchange:

>too, and formed more quickly, to serve them in this universe." (CITADEL, 

Roy is right of course, as always, but at the risk of hairsplitting I'll 
note it seems the Hierodules were found then (re) formed in Briah rather 
than created in Yesod from scratch. They already existed in Briah in some 
capacity.  All the similar statements I find in the text use the word 
"shape" instead of "create", which may be a purposeful distinction.

I still think Cyriaca's story is important.  Searching the archives, I find 
only Tony Ellis in one post 
(http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0029/0151.shtml) suggests he agrees with 
me that Cyriaca's story has something to do with the Hierogrammates, 
Hierodules, etc.

In her story, people had thoughts they put behind them because "they could 
not be written in numbers". Sounds like digital intelligence to me (and the 
basis for Long Sun Gods?).  Anyway, the machines in question, as mentioned 
before, do very Hierodule-like things like disseminating knowledge, 
artifacts and aquastors and impacting human development.

Cyriaca's story about the creation of these thinking machines takes place 
during empire building which stated to be part of Urth's and Severian's 
past.  Malrubius' story also describes an empire building era as the time 
the Hiero race created the Hierogrammates who escaped to Yesod.

Now, as Roy notes, Apheta and Tzadkiel think their Hierarch/grammate race 
will be produced by the humans of Ushas.  Are we to think that the peaceful 
priest of The Sleeper or the gentle Green Man produce an Ushas population 
who forge another bloody, galactic human empire and for   whom "Uncountable 
billions suffered and died under their guiding hands, leaving ineradicable 
memories of pain and blood"? So much for incremental improvement.

That doesn't seem right to me. Could Tzadkiel (of Yesod planet) be wrong?  
He/she certainly isn't omnicient, since Severian has to keep explaining 
stuff to Tzadkiel versions from giantess to tinker bell, each time.  Well, 
we know there is an even higher power at work.

Maybe the Hierodules were produced in Severian's past by (not yet fully 
formed in Wolfe's mind) empire-creating Whorls.  Perhaps these are the 
digital intelligences of Cyriaca's story.  Some hierodules escaped to Yesod 
to become Hierogrammates, of whom one (Tzadkiel) returned to Briah to shape 
the remaining Hierodules he/she found into tools to reform the now legendary 
Urth.

Well, that's my best attempt as synthesis for now, in lieu of throwing up my 
hands screaming "time paradox"

-bsharp