{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4688", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4688, "subject": "Severian's family tree", "messages": 24, "voices": 9, "first": "2006-08-13T16:26:57+00:00", "last": "2006-08-25T19:59:57+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-13T16:26:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don Doggett wrote:\nI am still not convinced that Dorcas is Sev's grandmother. Perhaps I'm just \nblind and stubborn, but\nit doesn't feel right to me at all. It makes no plot sense, no mythic \nsense, no moral sense, and it >hinges on such an obvious and ham handed \nrevelation. It's just a dud to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't want to get bogged down in the \"Original Sin is carnal knowledge\" \nissue, still less in the >morass of Severian's presumed familial \ninbreeding......" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sympathetic to the view that Dorcas really isn't Severian's grandmother. \n It is only implied by some \"ham handed\" clues, but never revealed \noutright. Ouen's mother (and boatman's wife) is named Cas not Dorcas and \nthere are no other nicknames used anywhere else that I know in BotNS (except \nZak). In many years of reading I never saw any plot, moral or mythic \nsignificance in the incest angle either except..\"Uh...Oedipus?\"\n\nBut lately I have seen significances, and finding plot, mythic and moral \nsense in that grandmotherly incest sways me to think it is the proper \ninterpretation. \"Cas\" is used in the same way as \"Zak\" and is revealed to \nbe a deliberate auctorial misdirection.\n\nRegarding ham-handed clues, I think this follows a pattern of puzzle \nsolution I see throughout BotNS. I liken it to those cryptogram puzzles you \nsee in the newspaper. You are given a jumble of letters and the author \nsolves one word for you. You then deduce rules and make intuitive leaps to \ndecode the rest. The Last House as a time travel structure is another \nexample of this puzzle solution. Wolfe tells us all about that one, then we \nare supposed to find the others. So Wolfe gives us one (or two) incest \noccurrences also.\n\nSo, in my recent attempt to map Severian's family tree I tried to assemble \nall the funny little clues I had noted through the years of reading but \ndidn't understand. Added to these was the incidence of incest and twins \n(the Severian-Severa clue). During the process I became struck with just \nhow many incidents of incest seemed to be implied and I wondered why.\n\nThen I realized \"Oh, Oedipus!\". Oedipus, like Severian, was a pretty good \nguy. He had no idea he had killed his father and married his mother (until \nlater in life). The reason he was set up to do those things is that he \nbelonged to a cursed family. Even relocation and anonymous adoption in \ninfancy couldn't break his family curse.\n\nThese Greek family curses were invariable brought on by a transgression \nagainst the gods. I don't see anything in BotNS suggesting Sev's family \ntransgressed against the pagan gods/cacogens/megatherians whatever they are, \nin such ghastly scope as was done to put the curse on (for example) the \nHouse of Atreus in mythology. Maybe, if we ignore timeframe, we could say \nthat Severian himself transgressed against them by being the Conciliator, by \ndefeating Ceryx, by helping depose Typhon and later killing him and by \nbringing a cleansing Judeo-Christian flood.\n\nHowever I think we could also say, simply, that these alien beings, \nrepresenting pagan gods, are by nature incestuous and that Severian's family \ntree was infected by the curse simply through a mating with one of them who \ntook human form. This curse takes the form of relentless incestuous sexual \nattraction between all family members, no matter how close and familial or \nhow distant and anonymous the family members might be.\n\nI can't get family brackets in here but I'll try to discuss what I think is \nSeverian's family tree in a later post. For now I'll just mention some \nquestions regarding the story; some weird things which always bothered me, \nbut are answered by an incest curse on Severian's family tree.\n\nWhat is the plot purpose of Agia and Agilus' presumed incest?\n\nWhy are Severian and Juturna sexually drawn to each other?\n\nWhy are Dorcas and Jolenta sexually drawn to each other?\n\nWhy does Typhon masturbate while talking to Severian?\n\nWhy do Vodalus' followers hope they won't be eating another lesbian before \neating Thecla?\n\nWhy does Severian twice deny/decry pedophilia between him and Little \nSeverian, without accusation?\n\nWhy does Severian tell Ouen he can't tell him who he is or what he will \nbecome, after putting Dorcas in his care?\n\nWhy do Dorcas' dreams seem to say she commited suicide (drowning in a well) \nbecause of a crime against her child.\n\nWhy do Severian and Valeria have a celibate (or at least childless) \nmarriage?\n\n(to be cont.)\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060814020733.6919.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-08-14T02:07:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- b sharp wrote:\n\nI can't get family brackets in here but I'll try to\ndiscuss what I think is \nSeverian's family tree in a later post." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Argh! (Stamps feet in frustration) This is why I don't\nwatch television shows. But you have me, the hook is\nfirmly in my mouth. : )\n\n\n For now" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll just mention some \nquestions regarding the story; some weird things\nwhich always bothered me, \nbut are answered by an incest curse on Severian's\nfamily tree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I for one am intrigued by this line of thought.\nI eagerly await your revelations.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-14T14:49:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<20060814020733.6919.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, Don I can't leave a cliffhanger! Especially if the logic for this \nfamily tree ends up making sense only to me. Too much build-up. But I'll \ntry to fit the whole thing in one post, leaving out some supporting evidence \nto be provided later if needed. I think there is some sketchy evidence for \nfamily ties among the pagan gods/megatherians of BotNS but I'll leave that \nout too, for now and focus on Severian's human family.\n\nI think the central story of the family origin is told by the old guy in \nCasdoe's house regarding Fechin. Fechin has a tryst with a beautiful girl \nwho sits in a window. Dorcas' earliest memory is of sitting in a window so \nI think the beautiful girl is her, and the family tree starts there.\n\nThere are hints that the old guy telling the story is really a woman, quite \nadmiring of Fechin. Fechin, not being one to turn down opportunity, starts \na side branch of Severian's family here. Fechin and this old woman had a \ndaughter named Herais, she had twins Casdoe and Cadroe (of the 17 Stones) \nand Casdoe had twins, Little Severian and Severa.\n\nGoing back to Dorcas and Fechin, I've previously noted clues showing that \nFechin is also Rudesind (and Father Inire) so that is important to this \nwhole train of thinking. I assume that Dorcas' first child was Ouen. He \nthinks she died during childbirth when he was young kid. Rudesind says his \nwife died soon after a second girl child was born. So Ouen had two younger \nsisters. If Dorcas' death was actually suicide, it might make sense if (per \nfamily curse) Dorcas felt weird sexual feelings toward her children. Suicide \nmight make further sense if Dorcas realized her husband was a philandering \ncacogen disguised as a human.\n\nSince Ouen was sent off, by his father, at a young age to be a potboy then \nwe must assume the two girls were sent off as well. A likely place to send \nthem, in the closed universe of BotNS, would be the Pelerines. The story \nhas two dark haired women, roughly the same age, who both left the Pelerines \nas young women. These are Catherine (who plays St. Katherine) and Cyriaca. \nIf these two sisters spent a lot of time together as postulants then we can \nguess one reason they had to leave the Pelerines, given the family curse. \nThough Cyriaca says it was her interest in men that did it.\n\nCyriaca mentions an uncle who dealt in rare books. She spent long hours \nwith this uncle, hearing stories about the secrets of the universe which \nnobody else really knows. This galactic knowledge might be a clue as to who \nthis uncle really is. The incestuous family curse suggests Cyriaca might \nhave had a child or two after spending too much time with dear old uncle \n(but before her marriage and her move to Thrax).\n\nWhen Cyriaca is spared by Severian, she seems quite comfortable about making \na living in Nessus, as though she was familiar with the place. Her age and \nthe fact that she can sew suggest that she is the mother who bequeathed the \nused clothing store to Agia and Agilus. Agia mentions owning a misericorde, \nwhich is a slim blade used for battlefield mercy killings. This sounds like \na weapon for a Pelerine. Agia also uses the crooked blade from Thrax and \nthese two weapons both suggest a connection between Agia and Cyriaca. \nRobert Borski has suggested that a golden aureole around the heads of Agia \nand Agilus denote their cousin status to Severian, the New Sun. If Agilus \nis seen as an Icarus figure, son of a Daedalus figure (Inire), his death \ncomes from coming too close to the (new) sun.\n\nCatherine seems to be sequestered somewhere in the Citadel. She doesn't \nseem to age, year to year, suggesting she has a kaibit close by to help her \nretain youth. It also suggests she has a powerful, probably exultant, \nhusband to provide such a luxury. I think it is the Castellan. Her \nkaibit's name is Carina, or some diminutive of Catherine similar to that. \nThe family incest curse would make sexual things happen between Catherine \nand Carina.\n\nCatherine ran off at some point, met an attractive guy named Ouen, not \nknowing they were siblings, separated in early childhood nor about her \nfamily incest curse. She was forced to return to the marriage and the \nCastellan did not, at first, suspect her subsequent pregnancy belonged to \nanother man. Her twins, Severian and Severa, were raised in the Citadel \nuntil the adultery was discovered a few years later. After that they were \nsent to be raised with the Torturers and Witches.\n\nCatherine was not killed by the Torturers for her transgression but her \nlook-alike kaibit, Carina, was, though much later, when Severian is a youth. \n Severian sees a dark haired woman (Contessa Carina in the Play) in a pale \ngown, with that face that always haunts him, being escorted along the Path \nof Air on Flood Day (returning her to her proper time and place). This same \ndark haired woman in a pale gown is seen by Severian in the grave dug up by \nHildegrin and Vodalus in the opening scene of the story. Her livid face \nsuggests the means of her death was Allowin's Necklace the torture device \nwhich is described in such detail. (or perhaps it was Catherine who was \nkilled and Carina later took her place playing St. Katherine; hard to tell \nwith clones).\n\nEither way, it was this dark haired woman in a pale gown who was eaten by \nVodalus' followers the time before Thecla. Apparently she had lesbian \ntendencies and the Vodelerii hope Thecla is not also a \"tribade\" (a vain \nhope I think, given her \"half sister\" Thea).\n\nThecla talks about her time up at the northern villa before she became a \nconcubine. Now a villa is the secondary, country estate of a noble family. \nHer primary estate is never mentioned, but twice, after Severian shares her \nmemories, it is hinted she had an early childhood being raised in the \nCitadel. So maybe the Citadel is the primary estate and her parents are \nCatherine and the Castellan. For a while I thought this meant Thecla was \nreally Severa. But I couldn't find any evidence to explain the name change \nor why she wasn't raised by the witches. So I have come to assume Thecla \nwas the product of a birth separate from Severian.\n\nThecla's choices of books tie her to Severian's family. The enamel \npaintings on one evoke the cloisonne of Dorcas' family. The Wonders of Urth \nand Sky (is that the title? sorry my books are not here) is reminiscent of \nCyriaca and her uncle. Devotionals could show a link to the Concilliator. A \ngeneology book suggests her ties to the Castellan.\n\nOne thing though. Severian sees the face of the dead woman in the grave \n(Carina) in the face of Ultan. Maybe Catherine met Ultan in her travels \naround the Citadel. He is a curator, like Rudesind and so, like all \ncurators, associated with Father Inire. An Ultan connection could be the \nreason Thecla is so knowledgable about books. The fact that a bull and a \nswan are part of a dream sequence involving Thecla's father makes me think \nFather Inire (Zeus-like in his pursuit of human women) is involved in her \nsiring and that perhaps the Castellan was once again cuckolded, never \ndiscovering this one.\n\nI'm ambivalent regarding how Thea fits in. Since twins run in this family \nshe could be a twin to Thecla. But then why call her \"half-sister\"? Thea's \nname is a diminutive of Thecla so she could be a kaibit. Either way, Thea \nwas given her own kaibit whom we see in the House Azure and in the House \nAbsolute. Thea is too short a name to diminuate so I think her kaibit's \nname was, at first, \"Thea's\", evolving into Thais. Somehow Thais escaped \nthrough the Path of Air and ended up on the raft with Pega and Odilo after \nthe flood.\n\nValeria is sequestered in the Citadel like Catherine. Valeria's clothes and \nCatherine's name are both described as old fashioned. Both Catherine's and \nValeria's face tear at Severian's heart. We never see Valeria's family, only \na servant, so her mother might be Catherine and perhaps her father is, this \ntime, the Castellan. Severian marries Valeria but they don't have any \nchildren in 10 years of marriage. Assuming they aren't using birth control \nI think it argues for a celibate marriage. Severian's newly acquired \nAutarchial knowledge seems to have made him wise enough to start realizing \nwho his family members are. And incest seems to be under an even stronger \ntaboo on Urth than on Earth. Despite all the allusions to incest it is \nnever openly mentioned. Not by Severian to his trusted anonymous readers \nand not even by corrupt, criminal and soon to die Agilus.\n\nSo the last empty slot in the family tree is for Severa, Severian's twin \nsister. Merryn, as a dark haired witch, is one candidate but there doesn't \nseem to be any mutual sexual attraction noted. Wolfe could have corrected \nthis in the Short Sun encounter if needed but he didn't. Moreover I think \nMerryn's stretched facial skin suggests she is a recipient of beauty \ntreatments and is much older than Severian.\n\nSo in some ways by default, we are left with Jolenta as Severa. Jolenta is \nprobably a stage name, she is from Nessus and she's only been a waitress for \na month so she could have been raised by the witches. She doesn't seem much \nlike a former witch, though. And I don't like that she is so stupid. All \nof Severian's other family members seem at least a little bit intelligent, \nable to talk at length about topics other than their own immediate wishes. \nAlso, I think at some point, even a dumb girl would say, \"Hey, Severian, \nfunny coincidence, my real name is Severa\".\n\nBut Jolenta does have sex with Severian, and sexual play with Dorcas. She \ndoes have some gold in her hair like Dorcas and Agia and Agilus. And \neventually Severian decides he loves her (though she has to remain \nunconscious before he starts to feel that way ;-) ) So, grudgingly, I'll \nhave to go with Jolenta as Severa.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001601c6c1b2$02799620$8c3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-17T04:02:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the root of this family tree is the transformation of an old man into an\nold woman. I can see no textual justification for such a change of gender.\n\nIn any event, a review of the brief first appendix to CLAW, which deals with\nsocial classes, puts a severe strain on some of these presumed\nrelationships. There we are told that the caste of exultants is a closed\ngroup, meaning that one must be born to it. The sisters Thea and Thecla are\nthere specified to be exultants, which means that they must be the products\nof exultant parents. There is no indication in the text that either\nCatherine or the Castellan were exultants. Little Inire absolutely was *not*\nan exultant; he is specified to be a cacogen. The likelihood of some\ncombination of these three as parents of the half-sisters is dubious.\n\nThe Citadel is the historical seat of power for the autarchs, and remains in\nSeverian's day largely their private bailiwick. The Castellan is the\nmilitary commander of the fortress. Appian told Severian, just before they\nboarded the doomed flier, that there were none among the exultants he could\ntrust. An exultant would not have occupied such a position.\n\nValeria is specified in the appendix to be an armiger, which means that her\nfamily were armigers. They were poor, so poor that they drank the same cheap\ntea that the torturers gave to their prisoners, and their towers were in\nruins. At her first meeting with Sev she said that her family had \"given\nmany castellans to the Citadel, but the last had died generations ago\". She\ngoes on to say that, \"No one of my blood carries a sword now against the\nenemies of the Commonwealth\". The Castellan who acknowledged Sev as autarch\nnear the end of CITADEL was an old soldier and very much alive. It is\nimpossible that he was Valeria's father.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-18T02:34:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<001601c6c1b2$02799620$8c3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, thanks for the good feedback. I had considered all but one of your \nobjections previously and I'll try to address each of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the root of this family tree is the transformation of an old man into an \nold woman. I can see no >textual justification for such a change of gender." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, not the root, but more a side branch. Considering the old person in \nCasdoe's house as female is based on two things. One is Severian's general \nunreliability as a narrator. Others in the past have documented his \nnumerous mistakes in identification so I won't list them here. I think this \nis an example of Severian misperception in part because this old person \ntalks about Fechin the way a woman might, admiring, attracted, forgiving of \nimperfections and even major faults. The other misperception clue is Gene \nWolfe's descriptive writing in this section. The other people in Casdoe's \nhouse never show any acknowledgement that the old person exists. The \nexception is one brief inaudible comment to him/her made by Casdoe. If not \nfor that I was willing to consider this old person as an eidolon/aquastor- \nvisible only to Severian- it is that extreme. So I take that refusal of \nother characters acknowledging this character as a puzzle clue. Doing that \nremoves the use of identifying pronouns for the old person and it just \nseems...weird (to me). A Wolfe pointer saying \"here, look here for a \nclue!\".\n\nNext regarding the Castellan:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Appian told Severian, just before they boarded the doomed flier, that there \nwere none among >the exultants he could trust. An exultant would not have \noccupied such a position." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yes and no. The Autarch cannot trust the exultants, which is why he \nkeeps their daughters hostage in ceremonial concubinage. So he has some \nmeasure of trust and control over them in this manner. Obviously the \nexulants hold positions of power in the Commonwealth. I would think the \nCastellan of the Citadel would be powerful enough for the Autarch to want \nhis daugher(s?) to serve in the capacity of concubine. Moreover in the Claw \nappendix on Commonwealth social classes, the Armiger section says," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"The armigers seem much like the exultants, though on a lesser scale. \nTheir name indicates a >fighting class, but they do not appear to have \nmonopolized the major fighting roles in the army\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Castellan's height is not given, so I submit the possibility he is an \nexultant.\n\nI base my assessment of the Castellan as stepfather to Severian based on \nthis memory of Severian's:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen curtain \nwall, as Thecla dodged the >hooves of my father's mounted guard\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take this to mean that Severian and Thecla shared a childhood in the \nCitadel. Only the Castellan would have a mounted guard there, I think. If \nSeverian and Thecla are family related, as other clues suggest, I decided \nthey must share a mother and perhaps a father/step father. I admit I'm not \nhappy with such convolutions but when you are making a family tree, you have \nto fill in the empty spaces with your best guess. Perhaps others can explain \nthese clues in a better way.\n\nI still wonder about Severian seeing that face of the woman in the grave in \nUltan's face. Ultan is another exultant, though he has obscured eyes as do \ncertain other suspicious characters in the book.\n\nRoy notes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Little Inire absolutely was *not*an exultant; he is specified to be a \ncacogen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True but I consider many cacogens to be capable of shape shifting. \nTzadkiel's example makes me think that shapeshifting may not be a matter of \nan individual rearranging his face and body into different shapes. We never \nsee the various incarnations of Zak actually transform from one shape/size \nto another. We do see a portion of giant Tzadkiel break off to become a \nhuman sized version. Perhaps each incarnation of Zak is formed in this way- \n a new piece of Tzadkiel broken off to become a new shape. The same thing \ncould be happening on Urth with Megatherians (remembering that \"therian\" \nmeans shapeshifter). Multiple versions of the same greater being might be \nappearing, here, there....everywhere, in different sizes and appearances.\n\nI agree most with Roy's objection to Valeria's place in the family tree. I \nappreciate him reminding me about some things:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Valeria is specified in the appendix to be an armiger, which means that her \nfamily were armigers. >They were poor, so poor that they drank the same \ncheap tea that the torturers gave to their >prisoners, and their towers \nwere in ruins. At her first meeting with Sev she said that her family >had \n\"given many castellans to the Citadel, but the last had died generations \nago\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that Valeria is of armiger status and so is Catherine, based on her \nheight as Severian describes it. But the description above doesn't jibe \nwith Catherine as her mother nor especially with the Castellan as her \nfather. So I am forced (thanks to Roy ;-) ) to go with Plan B for Valeria. \nThat she is not a family member of Severian's. So regarding the celibate \nmarriage hypothesis, Plan B says Severian can only become sexually \ninterested in a family member.\n\nWhich would mean Pia is a family member...and Severian does compare her to \nDorcas. And Daria should be a family member...she has red hair...a possible \nclue? Burgundofora also a family member?...no clues there that I can see. \nApheta....I don't even want to try with that \"insect\" :)). Well, pretty \nweak but that's why it was Plan B. Perhaps others will have better luck \nwith certain portions of the family tree.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060817224252.C650-100000@heimdallr.dyndns.org>", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "millman at heimdallr.dyndns.org" }, "date": "2006-08-18T02:51:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear bsharp:\n\nI believe that the memory of Severian that\nyou quote (copied below) exemplifies his\nhabit of slipping into Thecla's personali-\nty without warning. This happens through-\nout BotNS, though less, I think, in _Urth_.\n\nI read it this way:\n\n[Severian] I played again with pebbles\n in the courtyard beside the fallen\n curtain wall, as Thecla dodged\n[Thecla overcomes Severian] dodged the\n hooves of my father's mounted guard.\n\nThat is, the \"mounted guard\" is that of\nThecla's father, and not Severian's. The\ndoubling of \"dodged\" above is deliberate,\nas it's not clear where the shift of per-\nsonalities occurs. A memory of Severian's\nthat echoes with one of Thecla's prompts\nher personality to appear and briefly to\novertake Severian's.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, b sharp wrote:\n[snip]\n\nI base my assessment of the Cas-\ntellan as stepfather to Severian\nbased on this memory of\nSeverian's:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I played again with pebbles\nin the courtyard beside the\nfallen curtain wall, as\nThecla dodged the hooves of\nmy father's mounted guard\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I take this to mean that Severian\nand Thecla shared a childhood in\nthe Citadel. . . .\n\n[snip]" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c6c5ae$88e92540$9d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-22T05:47:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<20060817224252.C650-100000@heimdallr.dyndns.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My old _Webster's_ defines \"chatelaine\" this way: \"1. the lady of a castle;\nmistress of a chateau.\" \"Chateau\" is defined as: \"1. a French feudal castle.\n2. a large country house, especially one in France.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nThecla talks about her time up at the northern villa before she became a\nconcubine. Now a villa is the secondary, country estate of a noble family.\nHer primary estate is never mentioned, but twice, after Severian shares her\nmemories, it is hinted she had an early childhood being raised in the\nCitadel. So maybe the Citadel is the primary estate and her parents are\nCatherine and the Castellan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In chapter VIII of SHADOW, the Chatelaine Thecla spoke to Severian about\nGurloes having allegedly sent some people to the House Absolute to fetch her\nsome more clothes:\n\n\"I already have, and he says he sent some people to the House Absolute to\nfetch them for me, but they were unable to find it, which means that the\nHouse Absolute is trying to pretend I don't exist. Anyway, it's possible all\nmy clothes have been sent to our chateau in the north, or one of the villas.\nHe's going to have his secretary write them for me.\"\n\nThis statement makes several things clear. One is that Thecla's \"primary\nestate\" is not there in the Citadel. Her family had more than one villa, and\ntheir primary estate seems to be a northern chateau.\n\nThecla's family apparently had a villa in the area of Thrax. Severian\nconfirmed something Cyriaca had said near the end of their conversation\ntogether (SWORD, chapter XII) by calling up a memory of Thecla's dealing\nwith a \"country villa -- half manor and half fort\". Forts -- to say nothing\nof castles -- usually have defenders.\n\nThe memory \"as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard\" could\neasily apply to mounted guards at a family villa or at the chateau.\n\nBut this is all secondary. The one insurmountable problem of the Castellan\nbeing Thecla's father is the fact that the Castellan was alive and Thecla's\nfather was dead. One of Thecla's surfaced memories: \"my father had given a\nball for me each year until his death\". (CITADEL, chapter XXIII, last\nparagraph)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15D76379-572D-4F8D-8F9C-32CF83E3CFDF@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew DeLuca", "address": "straylightrise at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-22T06:08:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6c5ae$88e92540$9d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Was it ever established that Catherine was Thecla's mother? I'm not \nsaying your wrong but I'm just trying to catch up on established \ntheories and the archive system is so confusing and unwieldy to use." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 22, 2006, at 1:47 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nMy old _Webster's_ defines \"chatelaine\" this way: \"1. the lady of a \ncastle;\nmistress of a chateau.\" \"Chateau\" is defined as: \"1. a French \nfeudal castle.\n2. a large country house, especially one in France.\"\n\nb sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thecla talks about her time up at the northern villa before she \nbecame a\nconcubine. Now a villa is the secondary, country estate of a \nnoble family.\nHer primary estate is never mentioned, but twice, after Severian \nshares her\nmemories, it is hinted she had an early childhood being raised in the\nCitadel. So maybe the Citadel is the primary estate and her \nparents are\nCatherine and the Castellan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In chapter VIII of SHADOW, the Chatelaine Thecla spoke to Severian \nabout\nGurloes having allegedly sent some people to the House Absolute to \nfetch her\nsome more clothes:\n\n\"I already have, and he says he sent some people to the House \nAbsolute to\nfetch them for me, but they were unable to find it, which means \nthat the\nHouse Absolute is trying to pretend I don't exist. Anyway, it's \npossible all\nmy clothes have been sent to our chateau in the north, or one of \nthe villas.\nHe's going to have his secretary write them for me.\"\n\nThis statement makes several things clear. One is that Thecla's \n\"primary\nestate\" is not there in the Citadel. Her family had more than one \nvilla, and\ntheir primary estate seems to be a northern chateau.\n\nThecla's family apparently had a villa in the area of Thrax. Severian\nconfirmed something Cyriaca had said near the end of their \nconversation\ntogether (SWORD, chapter XII) by calling up a memory of Thecla's \ndealing\nwith a \"country villa -- half manor and half fort\". Forts -- to say \nnothing\nof castles -- usually have defenders.\n\nThe memory \"as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted \nguard\" could\neasily apply to mounted guards at a family villa or at the chateau.\n\nBut this is all secondary. The one insurmountable problem of the \nCastellan\nbeing Thecla's father is the fact that the Castellan was alive and \nThecla's\nfather was dead. One of Thecla's surfaced memories: \"my father had \ngiven a\nball for me each year until his death\". (CITADEL, chapter XXIII, last\nparagraph)\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-23T15:05:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<15D76379-572D-4F8D-8F9C-32CF83E3CFDF@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew DeLuca asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was it ever established that Catherine was Thecla's mother?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unfortunately for those interested in Severian's family tree, it can't even \nbe said that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother.\n\nI made my guess that Catherine is Thecla's mother based largely on that one \ncryptic passage:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen curtain \nwall, as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard.\"\n\nMark Millman interprets it this way:\n\n[Severian] I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen \ncurtain wall, as Thecla dodged[Thecla overcomes Severian] dodged the hooves \nof my father's mounted guard.\"\n\nRobert Borsky also thinks this is Thecla taking over in mid-sentence. For \nyears I reluctantly had the same interpretation. Reluctantly because \nelsewhere in the text, Severian and Thecla's memories tend to get their own \nparagraphs. In this passage, Severian and Thecla trade memories, sentence \nby sentence, each one set apart with the word \"Again\". Midsentence \nswitching seemed contrary to the mood I felt Wolfe was trying to set and too \nconfusing. If the sentence had to be split why not word it: \".....as \nThecla, I dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard\".\n\nMy mind was set to the opposite in a re-reading of Urth where I found \nSeverian saying something about, \"my childhoods in the Citadel\". Plural \nchildhoods? The other childhood wasn't Appian's was it? It could be other \nmemories but combined with the cryptic passage..... Perhaps that very \nimportant passage above should be read just as it was written: that \nSeverian, in his first memory as a child, remembers Thecla in the Citadel. \n(I spent an hour last night trying to re-find that plural childhood \nstatement in Urth but couldn't. Am I delusional? Help!)\n\nSo if Thecla was a child in the Citadel then perhaps her mother was \nCatherine, sequestered in the Citadel.\n\nRoy makes some good objections against the Castellan being Thecla's father, \nincluding that her father is said to be dead (now Roy, that is told in a \ndream sequence, and those are not to be trusted, right? ;-)). There are \nsome small hints that Ultan could be involved here (books, obscured eyes, a \nfamily resemblance). Perhaps he is a better candidate for true father and \nassume the owner of the northern chateau and villas remains an unnamed \nstepfather.\n\nRoy also raises the good question of Thecla's exultant status and height. \nCatherine is clearly of armiger height and thus makes a good mother figure \nfor Severian. Could she have produced a child as tall as Thecla with an \nexultant father?\n\nAll this isn't very satisfying, but neither is just resigning, ignoring many \nclues and saying, \"okay, Thecla is just a chance acquainance of Severian's. \nNo family connection, no incest, nothing important here.\" Maybe \"my \nchildhoods in the Citadel\" includes Severian's and Reechy's (Ymar's) \nmemories? I dunno.\n\nPerhaps someone, someday, can come up with a truly cohesive family tree for \nSeverian. Or maybe some people's hope will come true and Gene Wolfe will \nreveal his notes. Please Gene! It will stay right here in the \narchive...nobody else will ever know....\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3375DCD9-5B93-4DFB-90B4-5B23AA2E7943@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew DeLuca", "address": "straylightrise at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-23T16:30:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See I interpret the \"childhoods in the Citadel\" as a reference to the \ntheory of multiple Severians, It also could be the memory of Ymar \n(UOTNS) and other Autarchs who are now part of Severian.\n\nWe have to take into the fact that Severian and Thecla consistently \ncrossed each other's planes of consciousness. Then after the infusion \nof the Autarchs we have multiple people writing through one man who \nis \"cursed with memory\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 23, 2006, at 11:05 AM, b sharp wrote:\nMatthew DeLuca asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Was it ever established that Catherine was Thecla's mother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unfortunately for those interested in Severian's family tree, it \ncan't even\nbe said that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother.\n\nI made my guess that Catherine is Thecla's mother based largely on \nthat one\ncryptic passage:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen \ncurtain\nwall, as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard.\"\n\nMark Millman interprets it this way:\n\n[Severian] I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the \nfallen\ncurtain wall, as Thecla dodged[Thecla overcomes Severian] dodged \nthe hooves\nof my father's mounted guard.\"\n\nRobert Borsky also thinks this is Thecla taking over in mid- \nsentence. For\nyears I reluctantly had the same interpretation. Reluctantly because\nelsewhere in the text, Severian and Thecla's memories tend to get \ntheir own\nparagraphs. In this passage, Severian and Thecla trade memories, \nsentence\nby sentence, each one set apart with the word \"Again\". Midsentence\nswitching seemed contrary to the mood I felt Wolfe was trying to \nset and too\nconfusing. If the sentence had to be split why not word it: \".....as\nThecla, I dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard\".\n\nMy mind was set to the opposite in a re-reading of Urth where I found\nSeverian saying something about, \"my childhoods in the Citadel\". \nPlural\nchildhoods? The other childhood wasn't Appian's was it? It could \nbe other\nmemories but combined with the cryptic passage..... Perhaps that very\nimportant passage above should be read just as it was written: that\nSeverian, in his first memory as a child, remembers Thecla in the \nCitadel.\n(I spent an hour last night trying to re-find that plural childhood\nstatement in Urth but couldn't. Am I delusional? Help!)\n\nSo if Thecla was a child in the Citadel then perhaps her mother was\nCatherine, sequestered in the Citadel.\n\nRoy makes some good objections against the Castellan being Thecla's \nfather,\nincluding that her father is said to be dead (now Roy, that is told \nin a\ndream sequence, and those are not to be trusted, right? ;-)). \nThere are\nsome small hints that Ultan could be involved here (books, obscured \neyes, a\nfamily resemblance). Perhaps he is a better candidate for true \nfather and\nassume the owner of the northern chateau and villas remains an unnamed\nstepfather.\n\nRoy also raises the good question of Thecla's exultant status and \nheight.\nCatherine is clearly of armiger height and thus makes a good mother \nfigure\nfor Severian. Could she have produced a child as tall as Thecla \nwith an\nexultant father?\n\nAll this isn't very satisfying, but neither is just resigning, \nignoring many\nclues and saying, \"okay, Thecla is just a chance acquainance of \nSeverian's.\nNo family connection, no incest, nothing important here.\" Maybe \"my\nchildhoods in the Citadel\" includes Severian's and Reechy's (Ymar's)\nmemories? I dunno.\n\nPerhaps someone, someday, can come up with a truly cohesive family \ntree for\nSeverian. Or maybe some people's hope will come true and Gene \nWolfe will\nreveal his notes. Please Gene! It will stay right here in the\narchive...nobody else will ever know....\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c6c6da$f681a6e0$443ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-23T17:38:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<3375DCD9-5B93-4DFB-90B4-5B23AA2E7943@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\n(I spent an hour last night trying to re-find that plural childhood\nstatement in Urth but couldn't. Am I delusional? Help!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The passage you refer to is on page 284, chapter XL, of URTH. It is one of\nthose that can be, evidently, interpreted more than one way.\n\n\"When I spoke to Tzadkiel beside the brook, I strove to be\nas brief as I could; but she would not allow it, urging me\ndown this byway and that one until I had told her of the\nsmall angel (of whom I had read in my brown book) who\nhad met Gabriel, and of my childhoods in the Citadel, at\nmy father's villa, and in the village called Famulorum near\nthe House Absolute.\"\n\nI read it this way: \"Childhoods\" refers to the set of memories Severian\nretains. They are, respectively, his own in the Citadel, Thecla's at the\nvilla, and Appian's in the village.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608231222x257d4a2jd52c1b738b4e6a81@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-23T19:22:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<3375DCD9-5B93-4DFB-90B4-5B23AA2E7943@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "B,\n\nI have always taken \"my childhoods in the Citadel\" to refer to the many\nlives he remembers as heir to the line of Autarchial memories.\n\nThe business about changing personality in mid sentence? I think this\nis indication that Sev's personality/memories are getting more confused\nwith the passage of time -- ultimately one hopes he will merge them\nall into a single persona, but he's got trouble in the meanwhile." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200608231756.04081.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-08-23T21:56:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 23 August 2006 11:05, b sharp wrote:\nMatthew DeLuca asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Was it ever established that Catherine was Thecla's mother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unfortunately for those interested in Severian's family tree, it can't even\nbe said that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother.\n\nI made my guess that Catherine is Thecla's mother based largely on that one\ncryptic passage:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen curtain\nwall, as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard.\"\n\nMark Millman interprets it this way:\n\n[Severian] I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen\ncurtain wall, as Thecla dodged[Thecla overcomes Severian] dodged the hooves\nof my father's mounted guard.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recently moved and my books are still packed, so I can't research this \nmyself at the moment, but what's the reason for assuming that Thecla takes \nover mid sentence? Why can't the entire sentence be read as Thecla's memory:\n\n\"I [Thecla] played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen\ncurtain wall, as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060824014245.15574.qmail@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-08-24T01:42:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6c6da$f681a6e0$443ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if b sharp is correct in his interpretation, Ymar is a more likely candidate for the shared memory than Thecla, as his childhood is definitively established in the citadel.\n \n Don" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote: b sharp wrote:\n(I spent an hour last night trying to re-find that plural childhood\nstatement in Urth but couldn't. Am I delusional? Help!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The passage you refer to is on page 284, chapter XL, of URTH. It is one of\nthose that can be, evidently, interpreted more than one way.\n\nI read it this way: \"Childhoods\" refers to the set of memories Severian\nretains. They are, respectively, his own in the Citadel, Thecla's at the\nvilla, and Appian's in the village.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c6c73d$7309ea80$a23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-24T05:23:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<20060824014245.15574.qmail@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don Doggett wrote:\nEven if b sharp is correct in his interpretation, Ymar is a more likely\ncandidate for the shared memory than Thecla, as his childhood is\ndefinitively established in the citadel.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian doesn't have Ymar's memories. The only more-or-less intact memories\nhe acquired came from the directly-ingested flesh (plus analeptic) of Thecla\nand Appian. The chain of autarchic memories inherited from Appian grows\nweaker and weaker the further removed the memory of a particular autarch is\nfrom the present.\n\nSeverian, interrupting his narrative to directly address the reader at the\ntime he was writing, wrote:\n\n\"Ymar is dead, and such memories of his as lived for a time in the blood of\nhis successors are long faded.\n \"So mine in time shall fade too.\" (SHADOW, chapter XVII)\n\nThat's why he \"spent weary days in reading the histories of my\npredecessors\". (ibid., previous page) That's where he got the anecdote about\nYmar and the dog. Such accounts were stark and very unsatisfying to him.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060824061956.86487.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-08-24T06:19:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c6c73d$7309ea80$a23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\n\nSeverian, interrupting his narrative to directly\naddress the reader at the\ntime he was writing, wrote:\n\n\"Ymar is dead, and such memories of his as lived for\na time in the blood of\nhis successors are long faded.\n \"So mine in time shall fade too.\" (SHADOW,\nchapter XVII)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This assumes that Severian is a reliable narrator, but\nthere have been serious signs that his identity is\nseverely (no pun intended) compromised. I don't\nbelieve he knows which memories are his or whose they\nare either. And this is not grasping on my part; the\neasiest way for an author (Wolfe) to hide things is to\nhave the narrator say things that he thinks are true\nbut aren't and then belie them with what the reader\nobserves. This happens constantly in SS and LS and I\nthink it happens often in NS as well. IMO (flawed as\nit may well be) direct statements of belief by any of\nWolfe's protagonists are completely unreliable.\nBesides, if Sev is like any of Wolfe's other multiple\npersonality characters, there are certainly more than\njust Thecla and Appian in his head. But, I'm not\nsaying that Sev's memories of his \"childhoods in the\ncitadel\" are shared with Ymar, just that that's a more\nlikely scenario than he and Thecla sharing such a\nmemory. I actually think that your interpretation is\nthe correct one, \"childhoods\" describing three\nseparate places.\n\nargumentatively yours\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-24T11:18:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<20060824061956.86487.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Daniel D. Jones asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but what's the reason for assuming that Thecla takes over mid sentence? \nWhy can't the entire >sentence be read as Thecla's memory: \"I [Thecla] \nplayed again with pebbles in the courtyard >beside the fallen curtain wall, \nas Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The reason is, in the beginning of Shadow, Severian says his earliest memory \nis of stacking pebbles by the curtain wall. Fallen curtain wall definitely \nsuggests the crumbling Citadel. So adding Thecla definitely added something \nto Severian's memory. But was it Thecla's memory or a memory of Thecla?\n\nThecla taking over in midsentence seems to be the majority view of those \nweighing in but it still seems wrong to me. That breaks the established \nstructure of the paragraph. Also, why is the the word \"Thecla\" used? Why \nwouldn't it be:\n\n...I played again with pebbles, I dodged the hooves....\n\n\nRegarding this passage in Urth- \"and of my childhoods in the Citadel, at my \nfather's villa, and in the village called Famulorum near the House \nAbsolute.\"\n\nRoy says:\n\nI read it this way: \"Childhoods\" refers to the set of memories Severian \nretains. They are, respectively, his own in the Citadel, Thecla's at the \nvilla, and Appian's in the village.\n\nDon says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even if b sharp is correct in his interpretation, Ymar is a more likely \ncandidate for the shared >memory than Thecla, as his childhood is \ndefinitively established in the citadel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to agree with both Roy and Don, which definitely takes a large bite \nout of the theory that Thecla had a childhood in the Citadel, leaving only \nthe passage above from Claw, which only I interpret that way.\n\nIt does add a little to my vague idea that the \"first\" Severian might not \nhave been a version of himself in another iteration of Urth but instead, \nYmar. I think Dan'l once hinted that he considers the possibility that Ymar \nwas an ancestor to Severian.\n\nWhich brings to mind the important question of why Wolfe chooses to both \nstart and end BotNS with Severian mentioning his lifelong presentiment of \nhis future. Is it because the memories of a previous iteration echo through \ntime? Is it because Severian was/will be a time traveller? Is it because \nwhen Severian was born, his white fountain star (which is an aspect of \nhimself, related to Bethlehem's star?) was already in existence and hurtling \ntoward Urth?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608241041u1f7e99fexf7c0be709db6a2fa@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-24T17:41:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<20060824061956.86487.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do people keep referring to Severian's immediate predecessor\nas Appian? Is there some reference I've missed? I thought Appian was\nrather further back in the history of the Commonwealth, and that Sev's\npredecessor was (deliberately?) left unnamed.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/23/06, don doggett wrote:\n\n\n--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian, interrupting his narrative to directly\naddress the reader at the\ntime he was writing, wrote:\n\n\"Ymar is dead, and such memories of his as lived for\na time in the blood of\nhis successors are long faded.\n \"So mine in time shall fade too.\" (SHADOW,\nchapter XVII)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This assumes that Severian is a reliable narrator, but\nthere have been serious signs that his identity is\nseverely (no pun intended) compromised. I don't\nbelieve he knows which memories are his or whose they\nare either. And this is not grasping on my part; the\neasiest way for an author (Wolfe) to hide things is to\nhave the narrator say things that he thinks are true\nbut aren't and then belie them with what the reader\nobserves. This happens constantly in SS and LS and I\nthink it happens often in NS as well. IMO (flawed as\nit may well be) direct statements of belief by any of\nWolfe's protagonists are completely unreliable.\nBesides, if Sev is like any of Wolfe's other multiple\npersonality characters, there are certainly more than\njust Thecla and Appian in his head. But, I'm not\nsaying that Sev's memories of his \"childhoods in the\ncitadel\" are shared with Ymar, just that that's a more\nlikely scenario than he and Thecla sharing such a\nmemory. I actually think that your interpretation is\nthe correct one, \"childhoods\" describing three\nseparate places.\n\nargumentatively yours\n\nDon\n\n__________________________________________________\nDo You Yahoo!?\nTired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around\nhttp://mail.yahoo.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001a01c6c7ff$828ceee0$533ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-25T04:32:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608241041u1f7e99fexf7c0be709db6a2fa@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do people keep referring to Severian's immediate predecessor\nas Appian? Is there some reference I've missed? I thought Appian was\nrather further back in the history of the Commonwealth, and that Sev's\npredecessor was (deliberately?) left unnamed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Appian isn't mentioned by name in NEW SUN. The name is used in the related\nshort story \"The Cat\", in ENDANGERED SPECIES. (p.-215, paperback)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c6c809$cdcf17c0$753ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-25T05:46:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<001a01c6c7ff$828ceee0$533ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nThecla taking over in midsentence seems to be the majority view of those\nweighing in but it still seems wrong to me. That breaks the established\nstructure of the paragraph. Also, why is the the word \"Thecla\" used? Why\nwouldn't it be:\n\n...I played again with pebbles, I dodged the hooves...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that the passage, as it appears in print, is clumsy. It bothered\nBorski, as it bothered you. It bothers me. I don't know if the fault is\nWolfe's or the printer's or even that it is a mistake at all.\n\nNevertheless, it isn't enough to put Thecla in the Citadel as a child. In\naddition to the evidence I've presented so far, there is this.\n\nWe know that Thecla was born in the House Absolute. (Vatic Fountain\nprophesy) We know she was living in a wing of the House Absolute at age 13.\n(Domnina episode) (Not incidentally, Thecla seemed to be living there with\nher mother at that time. At least, it was her \"mother's servitrix\" who\nanswered the door for poor Domnina.)\n\nI mentioned before that Thecla's family had a villa near Thrax. That is\nwhere she spent at least part of her early childhood, probably up to the\ntime of puberty. The proof is in the very first memories inherited from her\nthat came to Severian after eating her flesh. From the penultimate paragraph\nof chapter XI in CLAW:\n\n\"Just when I despaired--she was there, filling me as a melody fills a\ncottage. I was with her, running beside the Acis when we were a child. I\nknew the ancient villa moated by a dark lake, the view through the dusty\nwindows of the belvedere, and the secret space in the odd angle between two\nrooms where we sat at noon to read by candlelight.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608250938y753934dame0703e641eb95bc4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-25T16:38:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<001a01c6c7ff$828ceee0$533ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/24/06, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nDan'l asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do people keep referring to Severian's immediate predecessor\nas Appian? Is there some reference I've missed? I thought Appian was\nrather further back in the history of the Commonwealth, and that Sev's\npredecessor was (deliberately?) left unnamed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Appian isn't mentioned by name in NEW SUN. The name is used in the related\nshort story \"The Cat\", in ENDANGERED SPECIES. (p.-215, paperback)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That story establishes, if I'm not mistaken, the following:\n\n1. Odilo the Steward tells the story in the fifth year of Severian's reign.\n2. Odilo is not a young man (he has known Inire for \"many years\").\n3. Odilo's father Odilo served the Autarch Appian.\n\nThis implies to me that Appian reigned sometime within the past\nsixty or seventy years. He thus _might_ have been Severian's\nimmediate predecessor, but against this I set Severian's mentions\nof Appian in _New Sun_ proper; Severian never says anything that\ncan absolutely date Appian, but he speaks of him as in the past\ntense, as one speaks of an honored monarch of the past." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1156529289.773.269429114@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2006-08-25T18:08:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608250938y753934dame0703e641eb95bc4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:38:09 -0700, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\"\n said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why do people keep referring to Severian's immediate predecessor\nas Appian? Is there some reference I've missed? I thought Appian was\nrather further back in the history of the Commonwealth, and that Sev's\npredecessor was (deliberately?) left unnamed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Appian isn't mentioned by name in NEW SUN. The name is used in the related\nshort story \"The Cat\", in ENDANGERED SPECIES. (p.-215, paperback)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That story establishes, if I'm not mistaken, the following:\n\n1. Odilo the Steward tells the story in the fifth year of Severian's\nreign.\n2. Odilo is not a young man (he has known Inire for \"many years\").\n3. Odilo's father Odilo served the Autarch Appian.\n\nThis implies to me that Appian reigned sometime within the past\nsixty or seventy years. He thus _might_ have been Severian's\nimmediate predecessor, but against this I set Severian's mentions\nof Appian in _New Sun_ proper; Severian never says anything that\ncan absolutely date Appian, but he speaks of him as in the past\ntense, as one speaks of an honored monarch of the past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The old autarch was honey steward before his elevation to the Phoenix\nThrone. (\"Paeon, who trained me, who was honey-steward fifty years gone\nby.\")\n\nThe Latin word for bee is \"apis.\"\n\nThe dots seem connectable.\n\nAnd while ostensibly a similar case could be made for at least one other\nsaintly exemplar (Melito), when Severian, after being rescued on the\nbattlefield of Orithyia by the mammoth-riding androgyne, sees \"a man\nwith the horns and muzzled face of a bull,\" this may be (as Borski\nnotes) an attempt by Wolfe to further link the old autarch with the\nEgyptian ox-god, Apis. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608251224s658c79cck5afd1874d90872c5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-25T19:24:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "<1156529289.773.269429114@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/25/06, Rex Lycanthrosaurus wrote:\n\nOn Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:38:09 -0700, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\"\n said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why do people keep referring to Severian's immediate predecessor\nas Appian? Is there some reference I've missed? I thought Appian was\nrather further back in the history of the Commonwealth, and that Sev's\npredecessor was (deliberately?) left unnamed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Appian isn't mentioned by name in NEW SUN. The name is used in the related\nshort story \"The Cat\", in ENDANGERED SPECIES. (p.-215, paperback)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That story establishes, if I'm not mistaken, the following:\n\n1. Odilo the Steward tells the story in the fifth year of Severian's\nreign.\n2. Odilo is not a young man (he has known Inire for \"many years\").\n3. Odilo's father Odilo served the Autarch Appian.\n\nThis implies to me that Appian reigned sometime within the past\nsixty or seventy years. He thus _might_ have been Severian's\nimmediate predecessor, but against this I set Severian's mentions\nof Appian in _New Sun_ proper; Severian never says anything that\ncan absolutely date Appian, but he speaks of him as in the past\ntense, as one speaks of an honored monarch of the past." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The old autarch was honey steward before his elevation to the Phoenix\nThrone. (\"Paeon, who trained me, who was honey-steward fifty years gone\nby.\")\n\nThe Latin word for bee is \"apis.\"\n\nThe dots seem connectable.\n\nAnd while ostensibly a similar case could be made for at least one other\nsaintly exemplar (Melito), when Severian, after being rescued on the\nbattlefield of Orithyia by the mammoth-riding androgyne, sees \"a man\nwith the horns and muzzled face of a bull,\" this may be (as Borski\nnotes) an attempt by Wolfe to further link the old autarch with the\nEgyptian ox-god, Apis.\n\n\n--\n Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n--\nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44EF56BD.5030002@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-25T19:59:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's family tree", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nTrue but I consider many cacogens to be capable of shape shifting. \nTzadkiel's example makes me think that shapeshifting may not be a matter of \nan individual rearranging his face and body into different shapes. We never \nsee the various incarnations of Zak actually transform from one shape/size \nto another. We do see a portion of giant Tzadkiel break off to become a \nhuman sized version. Perhaps each incarnation of Zak is formed in this way- \n a new piece of Tzadkiel broken off to become a new shape. The same thing \ncould be happening on Urth with Megatherians (remembering that \"therian\" \nmeans shapeshifter). Multiple versions of the same greater being might be \nappearing, here, there....everywhere, in different sizes and appearances." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're going way too far here. We see *one* ET who shapeshifts, \nand that only in the afterthought book, URTH, while others demonstrate \ntheir reliance on mechanical disguises.\n\n Greek therion (??????) means wild animal or beast, while the Latinised \nmegatherium has been used to as the name for prehistoric mamals whose \nfossils indicate much larger stature than their historical counterparts, \nincluding a giant sloth that doubtless serves as the inspiration for \nthat seen at the Well. The other existing connation of megatherian would \nbe \"great beast\" as Aleister Crowley styled himself. Thus, _Lives of the \nSeventeen Megatherians_ would make sense only as a compilation of \nbiographies of those most notoriously presented as black magicians, as \nperhaps including those who went on to use medical science in the guise \nof thaumaturgy to give themselves superior capacities, like Baldanders \nand perhaps Abaia or Erebus." } ] } ] }