Why so much synchronicity?
The Urth list — 12 messages, 9 voices, 19 Aug 2006
https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4692
junk06 at amalar.com19 Aug 2006, 21:16
I'm rereading (started with BOTNS this time, then back to Shadow).
I've read many theories on Severian's genealogy. Assuming all (or even most) of those theories are true, why does Severian end up meeting practically every single relative he has? He almost can't walk down a street without running into one.
It's not just relatives. Even as the narrator keeps mentioning how incomprehensibly populated Nessus is, he keeps running into people he knows. He even runs into people he knows out in the wilderness sometimes. Synchronicity abounds.
Meets man in library, meets same man years later racing down a street. Meets man digging a grave, meets same man years later in a boat. Has childhood friend, meets him again years later in the middle of a vast ocean. Meets man in library, meets him years later in another library across the country. etc etc etc for probably a dozen more examples
Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently. Anyone have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes19 Aug 2006, 21:39
↳ in reply to junk06 at amalar.com
2 quoted lines
On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com <junk06 at amalar.com> wrote:
Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently. Anyone have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?
I have two.
1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of Dickens. Dickens's plots are utterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow who catches Oliver, but not the Dodger, turns out to be his grandfather...) This doesn't bother his fans.
2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or the guidance of the Hier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that Severian fulfills that destiny (of which he already had some presentiment)
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.
However, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the characters." -- Stephen R. Donaldson
Jesper Svedberg19 Aug 2006, 21:56
↳ in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
2006/8/19, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>:
7 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com <junk06 at amalar.com> wrote:
Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently. Anyone have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?
I have two.
1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of Dickens. Dickens's plots are utterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow who catches Oliver, but not the Dodger, turns out to be his grandfather...) This doesn't bother his fans.
2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or the guidance of the Hier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that Severian fulfills that destiny (of which he already had some presentiment)
I would also suggest that it serves to make the narrative seem dream-like.
// Jesper
don doggett20 Aug 2006, 05:05
↳ in reply to Jesper Svedberg
An even simpler explanation is that the narrative is
written in the first person - It is essentially a
fictional memoir. In "real life" Sev surely meets
plenty of shmoes not worth mentioning. That's why he
doesn't mention them. It's selective recording, and
because Severian is being selective, it is probable
that he (the character, not Wolfe, though Wolfe also
of course) is trying to communicate something
indirectly. What that is is up for what is apparently
eternal debate. :)
Don
27 quoted lines · 1–3 deep
--- Jesper Svedberg <jsvedberg at gmail.com> wrote:
2006/8/19, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>:
On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com <junk06 at amalar.com>
wrote:
Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone
mentioned recently.
Anyone have theories as to why so many
coincidences fill the series?
I have two.
1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of Dickens.
Dickens's plots are
utterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow who
catches Oliver, but
not the Dodger, turns out to be his
grandfather...) This doesn't bother
his fans.
2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or
the guidance of the
Hier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that Severian
fulfills that destiny
(of which he already had some presentiment)
I would also suggest that it serves to make the
narrative seem dream-like.
// Jesper
_______________________________________________
don doggett20 Aug 2006, 05:15
↳ in reply to don doggett
It's worth mentioning that this sort of synchronicity
doesn't happen nearly as much in the Long Sun books,
which are third person, twice as long, and more -
what's the word?- pictorial?
Then when we return to a first person style with Short
Sun, everything becomes claustrophobic and intimate
again. imo, fwiw, lol, etc.
Don
46 quoted lines · 1–4 deep
--- don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com> wrote:
An even simpler explanation is that the narrative is
written in the first person - It is essentially a
fictional memoir. In "real life" Sev surely meets
plenty of shmoes not worth mentioning. That's why he
doesn't mention them. It's selective recording, and
because Severian is being selective, it is probable
that he (the character, not Wolfe, though Wolfe also
of course) is trying to communicate something
indirectly. What that is is up for what is
apparently
eternal debate. :)
Don
--- Jesper Svedberg <jsvedberg at gmail.com> wrote:
2006/8/19, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>:
On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com
<junk06 at amalar.com>
wrote:
Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone
mentioned recently.
Anyone have theories as to why so many
coincidences fill the series?
I have two.
1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of
Dickens.
Dickens's plots are
utterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow
who
catches Oliver, but
not the Dodger, turns out to be his
grandfather...) This doesn't bother
his fans.
2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or
the guidance of the
Hier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that
Severian
fulfills that destiny
(of which he already had some presentiment)
I would also suggest that it serves to make the
narrative seem dream-like.
// Jesper
_______________________________________________
Adam Thornton20 Aug 2006, 05:35
↳ in reply to junk06 at amalar.com
2 quoted lines
On Aug 19, 2006, at 2:16 PM, junk06 at amalar.com wrote:
I'm rereading (started with BOTNS this time, then back to Shadow). Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently. Anyone have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?
Perhaps Severian has been back and forth through time and reincarnated so many different ways that, actually, Every Single Person On Urth is one Severian or another.
We are all Severian!
Adam
Bob Miller20 Aug 2006, 09:23
↳ in reply to don doggett
Well, we do know that this type of synchronicity does happen irl as well. The most obvious example I rememberis Winston Churchill's memoir of how he got into Sandhurst. When he was taking the entry tests, 19th century of course, the applicant had to fill in a map of One of the "countries" (colonies?) of the British Empire--random and almost always different each year. The future Sir Winston wrote the names of all applicants on little pieces of paper and drew one at random from a hat. Divine Providence? Or Fortuna's action? I know what my opinion is. And this is the kind of thing Wolfe would know and use.
It's worth mentioning that this sort of synchronicity
doesn't happen nearly as much in the Long Sun books,
which are third person, twice as long, and more -
what's the word?- pictorial?
Then when we return to a first person style with Short
Sun, everything becomes claustrophobic and intimate
again. imo, fwiw, lol, etc.
Don
46 quoted lines · 1–4 deep
--- don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com> wrote:
An even simpler explanation is that the narrative is
written in the first person - It is essentially a
fictional memoir. In "real life" Sev surely meets
plenty of shmoes not worth mentioning. That's why he
doesn't mention them. It's selective recording, and
because Severian is being selective, it is probable
that he (the character, not Wolfe, though Wolfe also
of course) is trying to communicate something
indirectly. What that is is up for what is
apparently
eternal debate. :)
Don
--- Jesper Svedberg <jsvedberg at gmail.com> wrote:
2006/8/19, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>:
On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com
<junk06 at amalar.com>
wrote:
Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone
mentioned recently.
Anyone have theories as to why so many
coincidences fill the series?
I have two.
1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of
Dickens.
Dickens's plots are
utterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow
who
catches Oliver, but
not the Dodger, turns out to be his
grandfather...) This doesn't bother
his fans.
2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or
the guidance of the
Hier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that
Severian
fulfills that destiny
(of which he already had some presentiment)
I would also suggest that it serves to make the
narrative seem dream-like.
// Jesper
_______________________________________________
Bob Miller20 Aug 2006, 09:29
↳ in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
My own is that life is also full of these "coincidences", the result of a possibly ham-handed Divine Providence. i.e., life and history are full of incidents of such incredibly low probability that "no author would dare" use them.
2 quoted lines
On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com <junk06 at amalar.com> wrote:
Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently. Anyone have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?
Tony Ellis20 Aug 2006, 15:16
↳ follows, by subject match Bob Miller
2 quoted lines
Junk06 wrote:
Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently. Anyone have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?
And Bob Miller:
2 quoted lines
life is also full of these "coincidences", the result of a
possibly ham-handed Divine Providence. i.e., life and history are full of incidents of such incredibly low probability that "no author would dare" use them.
Absolutely. Wolfe uses synchronicity because it's realistic.
As Dan'l says, Wolfe is a Dickens fan and Dickens put a lot of coincidence in his novels - but why did Dickens do that? Because that was how he saw the real world. A crazy place where unlikely things happened all the time. I suspect that Wolfe, who ended up married to the little girl who once lived next door, has a similar world-view.
In any event, while the modern convention in novel-writing is to shun coincidence like the plague, it really is just that: a convention. And if there's one thing Wolfe enjoys in his writing, it's flaunting those.
Tristan Davenport20 Aug 2006, 17:50
↳ in reply to Tony Ellis
5 quoted lines
Absolutely. Wolfe uses synchronicity because it's realistic.
As Dan'l says, Wolfe is a Dickens fan and Dickens put a lot of coincidence in his novels - but why did Dickens do that? Because that was how he saw the real world. A crazy place where unlikely things happened all the time. I suspect that Wolfe, who ended up married to the little girl who once lived next door, has a similar world-view.
In any event, while the modern convention in novel-writing is to shun coincidence like the plague, it really is just that: a convention. And if there's one thing Wolfe enjoys in his writing, it's flaunting those.
It may be that Wolfe is following a genre convention rather than flaunting a mainstream one. One of the pearls of wisdom I obtained from the Clarion writer's workshop was a rule that coincidence can propel a plot, but not resolve one. Having read about a quarter of Wolfe's ouevre, I'd say his writing is pretty consistent with this rule. (e.g. Sev can stumble upon Vodalus in the cemetary, but when he eats the previous autarch's brains, he's gotta want it.)
Then again, I've only read about a quarter, or less, of Wolfe's work. There's plenty of room still for him to flaunt that convention as well.
Tristan Davenport
tristan_davenport at hotmail.com
junk06 at amalar.com20 Aug 2006, 20:25
↳ follows, by subject match Tristan Davenport
6 quoted lines
From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <danldo at gmail.com>
1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of Dickens. Dickens's plots are utterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow who catches Oliver, but not the Dodger, turns out to be his grandfather...) This doesn't bother his fans.
2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or the guidance of the Hier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that Severian fulfills that destiny (of which he already had some presentiment)
From: "Jesper Svedberg" <jsvedberg at gmail.com>
I would also suggest that it serves to make the narrative seem dream-like.
I would agree it's probably a literary device, and that it definitely gives the mood that something very strange is going on. However, I have a theory along the lines of Divine Providence.
I like to think the coincidences are a side effect of the time manipulation on Severian's behalf that is contrary to the natural flow of time. This produces some sort of disturbance in time, causing people to get caught into the disturbance, like swirling around in the eddies of a river.
Even the hierodules often seem surprised to see him. It's like they are walking merrily through time and and now and then..."Look, it's that guy again!"
Jeff Wilson21 Aug 2006, 04:20
↳ in reply to junk06 at amalar.com
2 quoted lines
junk06 at amalar.com wrote:
It's not just relatives. Even as the narrator keeps mentioning how incomprehensibly populated Nessus is, he keeps running into people he knows. He even runs into people he knows out in the wilderness sometimes. Synchronicity abounds.
My impression is that Nessus is underpopulated, with five standing buildings per inhabitant.
1 quoted line
Meets man in library, meets same man years later racing down a street. Meets man digging a grave, meets same man years later in a boat. Has childhood friend, meets him again years later in the middle of a vast ocean. Meets man in library, meets him years later in another library across the country. etc etc etc for probably a dozen more examples
The Eata conincidence I'll give you, but the others you likst are hardly that. My impression of the time passing is also much shorter for the rest; Thecla's imprisonment might be a year long, and Severian's exile seems barely to last the summer. It makes sense to me for Racho to be stationed near the citadel, for Hildegrin to continue his resurrection business in the corpse-rich area of Nessus, and to meet a library janitor elsewhere in the same library.
Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.