{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4692", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4692, "subject": "Why so much synchronicity?", "messages": 12, "voices": 9, "first": "2006-08-19T21:16:25+00:00", "last": "2006-08-21T04:20:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<6.0.3.0.2.20060819155739.022b60a8@mail.amalar.com>", "from": { "name": "junk06 at amalar.com", "address": "junk06 at amalar.com" }, "date": "2006-08-19T21:16:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm rereading (started with BOTNS this time, then back to Shadow).\n\nI've read many theories on Severian's genealogy. Assuming all (or even \nmost) of those theories are true, why does Severian end up meeting \npractically every single relative he has? He almost can't walk down a \nstreet without running into one.\n\nIt's not just relatives. Even as the narrator keeps mentioning how \nincomprehensibly populated Nessus is, he keeps running into people he \nknows. He even runs into people he knows out in the wilderness sometimes. \nSynchronicity abounds.\n\nMeets man in library, meets same man years later racing down a street.\nMeets man digging a grave, meets same man years later in a boat.\nHas childhood friend, meets him again years later in the middle of a vast \nocean.\nMeets man in library, meets him years later in another library across the \ncountry.\netc etc etc for probably a dozen more examples\n\nWhy? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently. Anyone \nhave theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608191439g2a0c3954w169319e233f3edd9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-19T21:39:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": "<6.0.3.0.2.20060819155739.022b60a8@mail.amalar.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com wrote:\nWhy? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently.\nAnyone have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have two.\n\n1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of Dickens. Dickens's plots are\nutterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow who catches Oliver, but\nnot the Dodger, turns out to be his grandfather...) This doesn't bother\nhis fans.\n\n2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or the guidance of the\nHier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that Severian fulfills that destiny\n(of which he already had some presentiment)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5b926a550608191456l33373b22gadf00e4e95f4928d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-19T21:56:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608191439g2a0c3954w169319e233f3edd9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2006/8/19, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently.\nAnyone have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have two.\n\n1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of Dickens. Dickens's plots are\nutterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow who catches Oliver, but\nnot the Dodger, turns out to be his grandfather...) This doesn't bother\nhis fans.\n\n2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or the guidance of the\nHier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that Severian fulfills that destiny\n(of which he already had some presentiment)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would also suggest that it serves to make the narrative seem dream-like.\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060820050514.90623.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-08-20T05:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": "<5b926a550608191456l33373b22gadf00e4e95f4928d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An even simpler explanation is that the narrative is\nwritten in the first person - It is essentially a\nfictional memoir. In \"real life\" Sev surely meets\nplenty of shmoes not worth mentioning. That's why he\ndoesn't mention them. It's selective recording, and\nbecause Severian is being selective, it is probable\nthat he (the character, not Wolfe, though Wolfe also\nof course) is trying to communicate something\nindirectly. What that is is up for what is apparently\neternal debate. :)\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Jesper Svedberg wrote:\n2006/8/19, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone\nmentioned recently.\nAnyone have theories as to why so many\ncoincidences fill the series?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have two.\n\n1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of Dickens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dickens's plots are\nutterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow who\ncatches Oliver, but\nnot the Dodger, turns out to be his\ngrandfather...) This doesn't bother\nhis fans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or\nthe guidance of the\nHier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that Severian\nfulfills that destiny\n(of which he already had some presentiment)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would also suggest that it serves to make the\nnarrative seem dream-like.\n\n\n // Jesper\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060820051515.46075.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-08-20T05:15:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": "<20060820050514.90623.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's worth mentioning that this sort of synchronicity\ndoesn't happen nearly as much in the Long Sun books,\nwhich are third person, twice as long, and more -\nwhat's the word?- pictorial?\nThen when we return to a first person style with Short\nSun, everything becomes claustrophobic and intimate\nagain. imo, fwiw, lol, etc.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- don doggett wrote:\nAn even simpler explanation is that the narrative is\nwritten in the first person - It is essentially a\nfictional memoir. In \"real life\" Sev surely meets\nplenty of shmoes not worth mentioning. That's why he\ndoesn't mention them. It's selective recording, and\nbecause Severian is being selective, it is probable\nthat he (the character, not Wolfe, though Wolfe also\nof course) is trying to communicate something\nindirectly. What that is is up for what is\napparently\neternal debate. :)\n\nDon\n\n--- Jesper Svedberg wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2006/8/19, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone\nmentioned recently.\nAnyone have theories as to why so many\ncoincidences fill the series?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have two.\n\n1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of\nDickens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dickens's plots are\nutterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow\nwho\ncatches Oliver, but\nnot the Dodger, turns out to be his\ngrandfather...) This doesn't bother\nhis fans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or\nthe guidance of the\nHier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that\nSeverian\nfulfills that destiny\n(of which he already had some presentiment)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would also suggest that it serves to make the\nnarrative seem dream-like.\n\n\n // Jesper\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<064AAAD5-C56E-4DFF-A62D-4B5A5D59CC95@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-20T05:35:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": "<6.0.3.0.2.20060819155739.022b60a8@mail.amalar.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 19, 2006, at 2:16 PM, junk06 at amalar.com wrote:\nI'm rereading (started with BOTNS this time, then back to Shadow).\nWhy? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently. \nAnyone\nhave theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps Severian has been back and forth through time and \nreincarnated so many different ways that, actually, Every Single \nPerson On Urth is one Severian or another.\n\nWe are all Severian!\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-20T09:23:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": "<20060820051515.46075.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, we do know that this type of synchronicity does happen irl as well. \nThe most obvious example I rememberis Winston Churchill's memoir of how he \ngot into Sandhurst. When he was taking the entry tests, 19th century of \ncourse, the applicant had to fill in a map of One of the \"countries\" \n(colonies?) of the British Empire--random and almost always different each \nyear. The future Sir Winston wrote the names of all applicants on little \npieces of paper and drew one at random from a hat. Divine Providence? Or \nFortuna's action? I know what my opinion is. And this is the kind of thing \nWolfe would know and use.\n\nIt's worth mentioning that this sort of synchronicity\ndoesn't happen nearly as much in the Long Sun books,\nwhich are third person, twice as long, and more -\nwhat's the word?- pictorial?\nThen when we return to a first person style with Short\nSun, everything becomes claustrophobic and intimate\nagain. imo, fwiw, lol, etc.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- don doggett wrote:\nAn even simpler explanation is that the narrative is\nwritten in the first person - It is essentially a\nfictional memoir. In \"real life\" Sev surely meets\nplenty of shmoes not worth mentioning. That's why he\ndoesn't mention them. It's selective recording, and\nbecause Severian is being selective, it is probable\nthat he (the character, not Wolfe, though Wolfe also\nof course) is trying to communicate something\nindirectly. What that is is up for what is\napparently\neternal debate. :)\n\nDon\n\n--- Jesper Svedberg wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2006/8/19, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone\nmentioned recently.\nAnyone have theories as to why so many\ncoincidences fill the series?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have two.\n\n1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of\nDickens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dickens's plots are\nutterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow\nwho\ncatches Oliver, but\nnot the Dodger, turns out to be his\ngrandfather...) This doesn't bother\nhis fans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or\nthe guidance of the\nHier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that\nSeverian\nfulfills that destiny\n(of which he already had some presentiment)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would also suggest that it serves to make the\nnarrative seem dream-like.\n\n\n // Jesper\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-20T09:29:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608191439g2a0c3954w169319e233f3edd9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My own is that life is also full of these \"coincidences\", the result of a \npossibly ham-handed Divine Providence. i.e., life and history are full of \nincidents of such incredibly low probability that\n\"no author would dare\" use them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com wrote:\nWhy? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently.\nAnyone have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c6c46b$a18e7350$6501a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-08-20T15:16:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Junk06 wrote:\nWhy? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently.\nAnyone have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Bob Miller:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "life is also full of these \"coincidences\", the result of a \npossibly ham-handed Divine Providence. i.e., life and history are full\nof \nincidents of such incredibly low probability that\n\"no author would dare\" use them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely. Wolfe uses synchronicity because it's realistic. \n\nAs Dan'l says, Wolfe is a Dickens fan and Dickens put a lot of\ncoincidence in his novels - but *why* did Dickens do that? Because that\nwas how he saw the real world. A crazy place where unlikely things\nhappened all the time. I suspect that Wolfe, who ended up married to the\nlittle girl who once lived next door, has a similar world-view.\n\nIn any event, while the modern convention in novel-writing is to shun\ncoincidence like the plague, it really is just that: a convention. And\nif there's one thing Wolfe enjoys in his writing, it's flaunting those." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tristan Davenport", "address": "tristan_davenport at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-20T17:50:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6c46b$a18e7350$6501a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely. Wolfe uses synchronicity because it's realistic.\n\nAs Dan'l says, Wolfe is a Dickens fan and Dickens put a lot of\ncoincidence in his novels - but *why* did Dickens do that? Because that\nwas how he saw the real world. A crazy place where unlikely things\nhappened all the time. I suspect that Wolfe, who ended up married to the\nlittle girl who once lived next door, has a similar world-view.\n\nIn any event, while the modern convention in novel-writing is to shun\ncoincidence like the plague, it really is just that: a convention. And\nif there's one thing Wolfe enjoys in his writing, it's flaunting those." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be that Wolfe is following a genre convention rather than flaunting a \nmainstream one. One of the pearls of wisdom I obtained from the Clarion \nwriter's workshop was a rule that coincidence can propel a plot, but not \nresolve one. Having read about a quarter of Wolfe's ouevre, I'd say his \nwriting is pretty consistent with this rule. (e.g. Sev can stumble upon \nVodalus in the cemetary, but when he eats the previous autarch's brains, \nhe's gotta want it.)\n\nThen again, I've only read about a quarter, or less, of Wolfe's work. \nThere's plenty of room still for him to flaunt that convention as well.\n\n Tristan Davenport\n tristan_davenport at hotmail.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.0.3.0.2.20060820150536.022b4b68@mail.amalar.com>", "from": { "name": "junk06 at amalar.com", "address": "junk06 at amalar.com" }, "date": "2006-08-20T20:25:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of Dickens. Dickens's plots are\nutterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow who catches Oliver, but\nnot the Dodger, turns out to be his grandfather...) This doesn't bother\nhis fans.\n\n2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or the guidance of the\nHier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that Severian fulfills that destiny\n(of which he already had some presentiment)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jesper Svedberg\" \nI would also suggest that it serves to make the narrative seem dream-like." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would agree it's probably a literary device, and that it definitely gives \nthe mood that something very strange is going on. However, I have a theory \nalong the lines of Divine Providence.\n\nI like to think the coincidences are a side effect of the time manipulation \non Severian's behalf that is contrary to the natural flow of time. This \nproduces some sort of disturbance in time, causing people to get caught \ninto the disturbance, like swirling around in the eddies of a river.\n\nEven the hierodules often seem surprised to see him. It's like they are \nwalking merrily through time and and now and then...\"Look, it's that guy \nagain!\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44E934A2.8060406@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-21T04:20:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why so much synchronicity?", "in_reply_to": "<6.0.3.0.2.20060819155739.022b60a8@mail.amalar.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "junk06 at amalar.com wrote:\nIt's not just relatives. Even as the narrator keeps mentioning how \nincomprehensibly populated Nessus is, he keeps running into people he \nknows. He even runs into people he knows out in the wilderness sometimes. \nSynchronicity abounds." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My impression is that Nessus is underpopulated, with five standing \nbuildings per inhabitant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meets man in library, meets same man years later racing down a street.\nMeets man digging a grave, meets same man years later in a boat.\nHas childhood friend, meets him again years later in the middle of a vast \nocean.\nMeets man in library, meets him years later in another library across the \ncountry.\netc etc etc for probably a dozen more examples" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Eata conincidence I'll give you, but the others you likst are hardly \nthat. My impression of the time passing is also much shorter for the \nrest; Thecla's imprisonment might be a year long, and Severian's exile \nseems barely to last the summer. It makes sense to me for Racho to be \nstationed near the citadel, for Hildegrin to continue his resurrection \nbusiness in the corpse-rich area of Nessus, and to meet a library \njanitor elsewhere in the same library." } ] } ] }