Subject: (urth) Why so much synchronicity?

From: junk06 at amalar.com <junk06 at amalar.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 21:16:25 +0000

I'm rereading (started with BOTNS this time, then back to Shadow).

I've read many theories on Severian's genealogy. Assuming all (or even 
most) of those theories are true, why does Severian end up meeting 
practically every single relative he has? He almost can't walk down a 
street without running into one.

It's not just relatives. Even as the narrator keeps mentioning how 
incomprehensibly populated Nessus is, he keeps running into people he 
knows. He even runs into people he knows out in the wilderness sometimes. 
Synchronicity abounds.

Meets man in library, meets same man years later racing down a street.
Meets man digging a grave, meets same man years later in a boat.
Has childhood friend, meets him again years later in the middle of a vast 
ocean.
Meets man in library, meets him years later in another library across the 
country.
etc etc etc for probably a dozen more examples

Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently. Anyone 
have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 21:39:20 +0000

On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com <junk06 at amalar.com> wrote:
> Why? It smells of ham handedness, as someone mentioned recently.
> Anyone have theories as to why so many coincidences fill the series?

I have two.

1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of Dickens. Dickens's plots are
utterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow who catches Oliver, but
not the Dodger, turns out to be his grandfather...) This doesn't bother
his fans.

2. These are all signs of Divine Providence (or the guidance of the
Hier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that Severian fulfills that destiny
(of which he already had some presentiment)

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.
However, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the
characters." -- Stephen R. Donaldson

---

From: Jesper Svedberg <jsvedberg at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 21:56:19 +0000

> (of which he already had some presentiment)

I would also suggest that it serves to make the narrative seem dream-like.

  // Jesper
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From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 05:05:14 +0000

An even simpler explanation is that the narrative is
written in the first person - It is essentially a
fictional memoir. In "real life" Sev surely meets
plenty of shmoes not worth mentioning. That's why he
doesn't mention them. It's selective recording, and
because Severian is being selective, it is probable
that he (the character, not Wolfe, though Wolfe also
of course) is trying to communicate something
indirectly. What that is is up for what is apparently
eternal debate. :)

Don

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From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 05:15:15 +0000

It's worth mentioning that this sort of synchronicity
doesn't happen nearly as much in the Long Sun books,
which are third person, twice as long, and more -
what's the word?- pictorial?
Then when we return to a first person style with Short
Sun, everything becomes claustrophobic and intimate
again. imo, fwiw, lol, etc.

Don

--- don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > On 8/19/06, junk06 at amalar.com
> <junk06 at amalar.com>
> > wrote:
> > > 1. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is an admirer of
> Dickens.
> > Dickens's plots are
> > > utterly coincidence-driven. (E.g., the fellow
> who
> > catches Oliver, but
> > > Hier*s, aqastors, etc.) to make sure that
> Severian
> > fulfills that destiny

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 05:35:14 +0000

On Aug 19, 2006, at 2:16 PM, junk06 at amalar.com wrote:

> Anyone

Perhaps Severian has been back and forth through time and  
reincarnated so many different ways that, actually, Every Single  
Person On Urth is one Severian or another.

We are all Severian!

Adam

---

From: Bob Miller <bob_bageera at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 09:23:04 +0000

Well, we do know that this type of synchronicity does happen irl as well.  
The most obvious example I rememberis Winston Churchill's memoir of how he 
got into Sandhurst.  When he was taking the entry tests, 19th century of 
course, the applicant had to fill in a map of One of the "countries" 
(colonies?) of the British Empire--random and almost always different each 
year.  The future Sir Winston wrote the names of all applicants on little 
pieces of paper and drew one at random from a hat.  Divine Providence?  Or 
Fortuna's action?  I know what my opinion is. And this is the kind of thing 
Wolfe would know and use.

Don

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---

From: Bob Miller <bob_bageera at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 09:29:21 +0000

My own is that life is also full of these "coincidences", the result of a 
possibly ham-handed Divine Providence. i.e., life and history are full of 
incidents of such incredibly low probability that
"no author would dare" use them.

---

From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:16:37 +0000

And Bob Miller:
>life is also full of these "coincidences", the result of a 

Absolutely. Wolfe uses synchronicity because it's realistic. 

As Dan'l says, Wolfe is a Dickens fan and Dickens put a lot of
coincidence in his novels - but *why* did Dickens do that? Because that
was how he saw the real world. A crazy place where unlikely things
happened all the time. I suspect that Wolfe, who ended up married to the
little girl who once lived next door, has a similar world-view.

In any event, while the modern convention in novel-writing is to shun
coincidence like the plague, it really is just that: a convention. And
if there's one thing Wolfe enjoys in his writing, it's flaunting those.

---

From: Tristan Davenport <tristan_davenport at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:50:02 +0000

>if there's one thing Wolfe enjoys in his writing, it's flaunting those.

It may be that Wolfe is following a genre convention rather than flaunting a 
mainstream one.  One of the pearls of wisdom I obtained from the Clarion 
writer's workshop was a rule that coincidence can propel a plot, but not 
resolve one.  Having read about a quarter of Wolfe's ouevre, I'd say his 
writing is pretty consistent with this rule.  (e.g. Sev can stumble upon 
Vodalus in the cemetary, but when he eats the previous autarch's brains, 
he's gotta want it.)

Then again, I've only read about a quarter, or less, of Wolfe's work.  
There's plenty of room still for him to flaunt that convention as well.

                             Tristan Davenport
                             tristan_davenport at hotmail.com

---

From: junk06 at amalar.com <junk06 at amalar.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:25:18 +0000

>From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <danldo at gmail.com>

>From: "Jesper Svedberg" <jsvedberg at gmail.com>

I would agree it's probably a literary device, and that it definitely gives 
the mood that something very strange is going on. However, I have a theory 
along the lines of Divine Providence.

I like to think the coincidences are a side effect of the time manipulation 
on Severian's behalf that is contrary to the natural flow of time. This 
produces some sort of disturbance in time, causing people to get caught 
into the disturbance, like swirling around in the eddies of a river.

Even the hierodules often seem surprised to see him. It's like they are 
walking merrily through time and and now and then..."Look, it's that guy 
again!"

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:20:50 +0000

> knows. He even runs into people he knows out in the wilderness sometimes. 

My impression is that Nessus is underpopulated, with five standing 
buildings per inhabitant.

> etc etc etc for probably a dozen more examples

The Eata conincidence I'll give you, but the others you likst are hardly 
that. My impression of the time passing is also much shorter for the 
rest; Thecla's imprisonment might be a year long, and Severian's exile 
seems barely to last the summer. It makes sense to me for Racho to be 
stationed near the citadel, for Hildegrin to continue his resurrection 
business in the corpse-rich area of Nessus, and to meet a library 
janitor elsewhere in the same library.