{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4694", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4694, "subject": "Severian as Savior; Destruction Of Urth As Redemptive Act?", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2006-08-20T20:57:34+00:00", "last": "2006-08-21T17:52:25+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<19ee41770608201357p2c3bb58t1d04d69d7aa83ba5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jack Redelfs", "address": "jackredelfs at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-20T20:57:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as Savior; Destruction Of Urth As Redemptive Act?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've only posted once or twice in the past few years of reading this\nlist, I've only posted once or twice, but for some reason I caught the bug\ntoday.\n\nHere's a statement by Adam Stephanides:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian in UotNS and Latro in SOLDIER OF ARETE both go through\nperiods of severe depression; Severian is near-suicidal iirc, although\nthis isn't too surprising since he's just caused the death of billions\nof people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Time after time this event (the destruction of Urth and the concurrent\nrenewal of Ushas) seems to be viewed by readers as a holocaust, wholly dark\nin impact, or at the very least morally weird and perplexing.\n\nI got a very different impression on reading UOTNS. In my reading, Severian\nmay have killed billions of people, but it was a justifiable \"cracking of\neggs\" in order to bring about a righteous purpose. The ultimate outcome was\nnot just redemptive for the aging sun, but for humanity as a whole." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From my reading, the destruction of Urth was righteous for\ntwo reasons:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) Most importantly, it was a moral redemption. After all,\nlife without honor is a living death.\n\n2) It was a physical redemption, preserving the bloodlines of\nUrth. Immediate trauma is preferable to eventual extinction.\nHumanity was trapped on Urth (although probably by choice)\nand the sun was fading very fast. True, Severian has the\nability to escape by various means, but he seems a special\ncase. Despite the ephemeral presence of cacogens, there was nowhere for\nJonas and co. to dock, and no more Whorls in the making.\n\nAssumption no. 1 deserves more explanation.\nIn _The Claw Of The Conciliator_, Wolfe states that, just as the brutes that\nattack Severian in the underground stream have become\nwarped by their long sojourn in darkness, so has humanity become twisted by\nthe fading of the sun[1]. Observe Urth's casual acceptance of torture,\npublic execution, prostitution, dictatorship. It's a a brutal worldview that\nmost of the characters seem to share. Severian is often called an anti-hero\nfor his occasionally cruel behavior, but in this regard I see him as merely\na man of his times (In any case, I think Sev's sin is\noften overemphasized over his kindness - especially by himself. Like many of\nWolfe's protagonists, Severian's humble\nnature verges on a crisis of confidence).\n\nJust as commoners and gentry alike speak in genteel language, while engaging\nin horrid cruelties, so does Urth seem like a parody of Earth, an ornate\ncollection of lies. Or, if you will, a painted sepulchre rotten on the\ninside.\n\nIf Wolfe is a good Christian he accepts the Judaeo-Christian belief that,\njust as God gives life, it is his to take away (Is it Pindaros, in SOTM, who\nstates \"we universally recognize the right of Gods to slaughter men as men\nslaughter beasts\" — An archaic idea, but fully acceptable to Christianity).\nHence the rightness of a redemptive flood, to sweep away a corrupt system\nand replace it with a clean slate.\n\nAm I misreading the text in seeing the flooding of Urth as painful but\nnecessary for the moral and physical health of the human race?\n\n[1] I don't have a reference, but it was a discussion between Severian and\nJonas, perhaps immediately after Severian captured, than freed Agia, a one\nof his many humane acts." } ] }, { "message_id": "<008101c6c4e7$82239fa0$2c3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-21T06:03:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as Savior;\n\tDestruction Of Urth As Redemptive Act?", "in_reply_to": "<19ee41770608201357p2c3bb58t1d04d69d7aa83ba5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Redelfs wrote:\nI got a very different impression on reading UOTNS. In my reading, Severian\nmay have killed billions of people, but it was a justifiable \"cracking of\neggs\" in order to bring about a righteous purpose. The ultimate outcome was\nnot just redemptive for the aging sun, but for humanity as a whole." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then you won't agree with Wright's ATTENDING DAEDALUS. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) It was a physical redemption, preserving the bloodlines of\nUrth. Immediate trauma is preferable to eventual extinction.\nHumanity was trapped on Urth (although probably by choice)\nand the sun was fading very fast. True, Severian has the\nability to escape by various means, but he seems a special\ncase. Despite the ephemeral presence of cacogens, there was nowhere for\nJonas and co. to dock, and no more Whorls in the making." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The \"Ice Future\" would take a long time to come about. But no matter what\nhappened to Urth, mankind had already spread, minimally, all across the\ngalaxy. Ushas was not necessary to the survival of the species.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7ADA6F93-7BDA-45FD-BF38-81EAA4E3B9B4@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew DeLuca", "address": "straylightrise at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-21T17:52:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as Savior;\n\tDestruction Of Urth As Redemptive Act?", "in_reply_to": "<008101c6c4e7$82239fa0$2c3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yea but wasn't Severian's Ushas supposed to reconcile the sins of the \nprevious human race that had damaged the universe ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 21, 2006, at 2:03 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJack Redelfs wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I got a very different impression on reading UOTNS. In my reading, \nSeverian\nmay have killed billions of people, but it was a justifiable \n\"cracking of\neggs\" in order to bring about a righteous purpose. The ultimate \noutcome was\nnot just redemptive for the aging sun, but for humanity as a whole." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then you won't agree with Wright's ATTENDING DAEDALUS. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) It was a physical redemption, preserving the bloodlines of\nUrth. Immediate trauma is preferable to eventual extinction.\nHumanity was trapped on Urth (although probably by choice)\nand the sun was fading very fast. True, Severian has the\nability to escape by various means, but he seems a special\ncase. Despite the ephemeral presence of cacogens, there was \nnowhere for\nJonas and co. to dock, and no more Whorls in the making." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"Ice Future\" would take a long time to come about. But no \nmatter what\nhappened to Urth, mankind had already spread, minimally, all across \nthe\ngalaxy. Ushas was not necessary to the survival of the species.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }