{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4696", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4696, "subject": "Appian (was: Severian's family tree)", "messages": 21, "voices": 9, "first": "2006-08-25T18:19:02+00:00", "last": "2006-08-29T23:01:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000001c6c872$f1444d10$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-08-25T18:19:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian (was: Severian's family tree)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apologies if this turns into a repeat post, the little tubes of the\ninternet seem to have eaten my first attempt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\nWhy do people keep referring to Severian's immediate predecessor as \nAppian? Is there some reference I've missed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. As far as I can see it's a mistake that's been\nrepeated so many times on this list that it has somehow magically become\n'true', like Holmes saying \"Elementary, my dear Watson.\" :-)\n\nAs you say, Appian dates from too long ago. In 'The Cat' we're told that\nAppian was Autarch 62 years before Severian's reign. Even if we\ngenerously make Appian 18 at the time, that would still make the Autarch\nSeverian knows a man of 80.\n\nThe thinking seems to be that since the old Autarch was trained by a\nhoney-steward, 'Apian' would be an apt name for him. Well, yes. Appian,\non the other hand, is an entirely different word - derived, as far as I\ncan see, from the name Appius, etymology unknown." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001601c6ca60$0dcdcc60$e83ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-28T05:08:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6c872$f1444d10$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note: In this post, \"Old Autarch\" refers to Severian's immediate\npredecessor.\n\nAs Tony said, Appian has been accepted as the name of the Old Autarch for a\nlong time by many people. Both Andre-Driussi and Borski have endorsed the\nnotion in print." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nAs you say, Appian dates from too long ago. In 'The Cat' we're told that\nAppian was Autarch 62 years before Severian's reign. Even if we\ngenerously make Appian 18 at the time, that would still make the Autarch\nSeverian knows a man of 80.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, the age of the Old Autarch presents something of a problem, but he's\nnot alone. I'll try to assemble the facts in so far as they can be\ndetermined from the text(s), but first I need a measuring stick --\nSeverian's age at the time he became autarch.\n\nPersonally, based on scattered comments by Sev himself, by Gurloes and,\nparticularly, Thecla, I have a hard time seeing him as any more than 18 when\nhe became autarch, but my opinion must take a back seat to the numbers\nafforded by the text.\n\nWhen Sev first met Agia, he thought she was \"twenty or a little more\". She\nlater acknowledged she was 23. Hildegrin, while making a snide comment about\nAgia, said that Sev \"was probably born only a couple years sooner\" than she.\nThat all seems to establish that Sev was about 25 when he became autarch.\n\nSancha was 14 at the time of the scandal. Lomer was 28. When Sancha \"came of\nage\" (18?, 21?), she was permitted by the Autarch Appian to move down south.\nShe returned to the House Absolute fifty years later, age about 70. She died\nseven years after returning (age 77), when Sev was about 20. Lomer was still\nin the antechamber five years after she died.That would make Lomer about 96\nwhen Sev first met him, which strikes me as a bit hard to believe.\n\nOdilo II (author of \"The Cat\") became Steward when Sev was 10, so Sev was 13\nwhen Sancha returned to the House Absolute. We know the Old Autarch was\ndefinitely ruler when she returned, because he opened the whorehouse about\nthe time Sev was born. So, if Appian wasn't the Old Autarch, then Appian\ndied while Sancha was down south.\n\nNot long before dying, the Old Autarch said, \"You remember everything, and\nso you must recall the night you came to my House Azure. That night someone\nelse came to me. I was a servant once, in the House Absolute.... That is why\nthey hate me. As they will hate you, for what you once were. Paeon, who\ntrained me, who was honey-steward fifty years gone by. I knew what he was in\ntruth, for I had met him before. He told me you were the one... the next. I\ndid not think it would be quite so soon...\" (CITADEL, chapter XXV)\n\nTrained to do what? Wrangle bees? Be a good ruler? To serve tea? It seems to\nme that Paeon was not a mere man, if he was a man at all. He goes from a\n\"who\" to a \"what\". He may have been some variety of Hierodule, or a man the\nOld Autarch knew years before who had died or disappeared and returned as an\neidolon that night, recreated just for the occasion of heralding the certain\nknowledge that Sev would be the next autarch.\n\nAt any rate, the quote seems to suggest that Sev's predecessor was hanging\naround the House Absolute, if only as a servant, long before Sev was born.\nHow much time passed between the Old Autarch gaining the throne and going to\nYesod? Why the incidental mention of honey-steward, if honey is not related\nto the name Appian, regardless of whether or not the etymology is correct?\nIf Paeon trained Sev's immediate predecessor, he may also have been involved\nwith autarchs before him. He may have arranged things so that the Old\nAutarch, groomed to satisfaction, was in the right place at the right time\nto eat *his* predecessor's forebrain. The Old Autarch certainly knew that he\nwould encounter Sev up north and be replaced.\n\nPalaemon said that the roads had been closed, when he was Sev's age (25), by\nthe Autarch Maruthas. How old is Palaemon? Did Maruthas reign before or\nafter Appian? If before, then Palaemon had to be *at least* 82 when Sev\nbecame autarch, even if Maruthas died in the same year Appian let Sancha\nleave the House Absolute. If after, then at least two autarchs died while\nSancha was away, and Palaemon's age can be less than 82.\n\nAll in all, I think the preponderance of evidence suggests that Sancha's\nAppian was not the Old Autarch, and that the last four rulers of the\nCommonwealth were, in order, Appian, Maruthas, the Old Autarch and Severian.\nSev, though he has all the guy's memories, goes out of his way *not* to\nmention the guy's name. Why? And what was the name?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44F27EF0.3010706@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T05:28:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<001601c6ca60$0dcdcc60$e83ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAll in all, I think the preponderance of evidence suggests that Sancha's\nAppian was not the Old Autarch, and that the last four rulers of the\nCommonwealth were, in order, Appian, Maruthas, the Old Autarch and Severian.\nSev, though he has all the guy's memories, goes out of his way *not* to\nmention the guy's name. Why? And what was the name?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Considering the way Thecla's memories loom and threaten to take over \nwhenever she is called to mind, perhaps avoiding the old Autarch's \npersonal name is an attempt to keep *that* set of memories from taking over?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005501c6ca65$737b35c0$e83ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-28T05:47:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<44F27EF0.3010706@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nAll in all, I think the preponderance of evidence suggests that Sancha's\nAppian was not the Old Autarch, and that the last four rulers of the\nCommonwealth were, in order, Appian, Maruthas, the Old Autarch and\nSeverian.\nSev, though he has all the guy's memories, goes out of his way *not* to\nmention the guy's name. Why? And what was the name?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Considering the way Thecla's memories loom and threaten to take over\nwhenever she is called to mind, perhaps avoiding the old Autarch's\npersonal name is an attempt to keep *that* set of memories from taking\nover?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She did take over at times, notably when Sev and the autarch were on the\ndoomed flier. In fact, the autarch pulled a gun on her/him when it happened.\nThat would have been a good time for Sev/Thecla to drop the guy's name --\nthere was no good reason then not to reveal it, because all present knew\nwhat it was.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7FFFDA4F-5647-486B-A783-1D5D81C1D687@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T05:50:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<005501c6ca65$737b35c0$e83ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 27, 2006, at 10:47 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThat would have been a good time for Sev/Thecla to drop the guy's \nname --\nthere was no good reason then not to reveal it, because all present \nknew\nwhat it was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude, I'm telling you, it's \"Verus.\"\n\nStupid Onomastics to the Rescue!\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44F288CF.2020802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T06:10:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: Appian", "in_reply_to": "<005501c6ca65$737b35c0$e83ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "All in all, I think the preponderance of evidence suggests that Sancha's\nAppian was not the Old Autarch, and that the last four rulers of the\nCommonwealth were, in order, Appian, Maruthas, the Old Autarch and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Sev, though he has all the guy's memories, goes out of his way *not* to\nmention the guy's name. Why? And what was the name?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Considering the way Thecla's memories loom and threaten to take over\nwhenever she is called to mind, perhaps avoiding the old Autarch's\npersonal name is an attempt to keep *that* set of memories from taking" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "over?\n\nShe did take over at times, notably when Sev and the autarch were on the\ndoomed flier. In fact, the autarch pulled a gun on her/him when it happened.\nThat would have been a good time for Sev/Thecla to drop the guy's name --\nthere was no good reason then not to reveal it, because all present knew\nwhat it was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps it was mentioned then, but the narrator redacts the dialogue to \navoid writing it, becasue he still has those memories lurking within." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1156750238.20432.269553380@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2006-08-28T07:30:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian (was: Severian's family tree)", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6c872$f1444d10$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tony Ellis writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As you say, Appian dates from too long ago. In 'The Cat' we're told that\nAppian was Autarch 62 years before Severian's reign. Even if we\ngenerously make Appian 18 at the time, that would still make the Autarch\nSeverian knows a man of 80." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd agree with Tony if I thought the old autarch was really 80, but I\ndon't for a number of reasons.\n\nFor starters, I have a lot of problems with the 62-year figure cited\nsince the statement about how \"Paeon, who trained me, who was\nhoney-steward fifty years gone by\" seems to imply that the training in\nquestion took place fifty years ago. Given that Sev-as-Legion has\nmemories of being a boy in the kitchens of the House Absolute further\nseems to indicate he was quite young when he began his apprenticeship.\nIf he was five, that means he will only be 55 when he dies; if he's\ntwelve, 62. In a low tech subsistence culture like the Commonwealth,\nboth 55 and 62 might indeed constitute \"old.\" A kitchen apprenticeship\nalso seems consistent with someone being trained as honey steward\n\nBut even if Tony's right, and 62 is not the penultimate autarch's\nlifespan, but the length of his reign, other factors may impact on his\nputative age. \n\nRoy Lackey has argued, for example, that when the penultimate autarch\nwent to Yesod, the time lapse was probably minimal. From purely textual\nanalysis, however, I don't believe there's any way to tell whether he's\ngone two minutes or ten years, which further complicates the age\nquestion. Because the ship of the Hierogrammates slips in and out of\ntime, Gunnie also claims that some people disembark even younger than\nwhen they got on. Hence that hypothetical upper 80 might in actuality be\nmuch lower.\n\nThen, too: is one required to be a minimum age before assuming the\nautarchy? How old is Reechy/Ymar? Or Severian -- who quite probably is\nstill a teen? Could it be even younger? Sixteen? (cf. Alexander the\nGreat) Or even twelve or ten, since Father Inire is probably going to be\nacting as regent anyway? This could further lower the supposed old age\nTony and others think disqualifies Appian as Sev's predecessor,\nespecially if, in his duties as apprentice or journeyman steward, he\nstumbles upon the antepenultimate autarch alone in his final moments. \n\nAnd as an addendum to my previous post, worker bees (by far the largest\npopulation in any hive) are sterile, as is the autarch who precedes\nSeverian. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c6caca$44f7c190$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T17:49:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<1156750238.20432.269553380@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus wrote:\nBut even if Tony's right, and 62 is not the penultimate autarch's\nlifespan, but the length of his reign, other factors may impact on his\nputative age. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're either misreading me or misquoting me. :-) I have never said that\n62 years was the length of the penultimate Autarch's reign. 62 is the\nnumber of years that have passed between a point when we know Appian was\non the throne and the point when Severian meets the penultimate Autarch.\nI'm saying that this *can't* be the length of the penultimate Autarch's\nreign. It would make him far too old.\n\nAs for there being some sort of extenuating circumstances... There is no\nevidence that Appian was only a boy at the time of the 62-years-ago\nincident describe in The Cat, there is no evidence that the penultimate\nAutarch's trip to Yesod took decades off him. \n\nIf anything, the lack of evidence is a strike against such arguments. It\nseems a little unusual that a ten-year-old Autarch should *not* be\nremarked upon. It seems a little strange that Severian can describe\n'his' Autarch as almost like 'a plump woman of 40' and not wonder how\nsomeone who has been doing the job for at least 62 years could look so\nyoung.\n\nAnd finally we have the mysterious Paeon, whom Roy also mentions. You\nreason that the penultimate Autarch may have been 5-12 years old when\nPaeon trained him, 50 years ago, and I agree. But since we know Appian\nhad been on the throne *at least* 12 years by then, doesn't that support\nmy theory rather than yours? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<10608281755.AA03680@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T17:55:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6caca$44f7c190$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're either misreading me or misquoting me. :-) I have never said that\n62 years was the length of the penultimate Autarch's reign. 62 is the\nnumber of years that have passed between a point when we know Appian was\non the throne and the point when Severian meets the penultimate Autarch.\nI'm saying that this *can't* be the length of the penultimate Autarch's\nreign. It would make him far too old." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How long do humans live in the time of the New Sun books?\nHow about wealthy humans with access to ET medicine and time travel?\nDo we have any idea?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1156795311.22199.269598888@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2006-08-28T20:01:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6caca$44f7c190$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:49:11 +0100, \"Tony Ellis\"\n said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems a little strange that Severian can describe\n'his' Autarch as almost like 'a plump woman of 40' and not wonder how\nsomeone who has been doing the job for at least 62 years could look so\nyoung." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stranger still that the penultimate autarch, who looks like \"a plump\nwoman of forty,\" can have been trained in his duties as honey steward\nover fifty years ago, which, depending on his age when he started (5-12,\nwhich even you agree with), would make him at least fifty-five, if not\nin his early sixties. So \"he\" obviously cannot be forty. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems a little unusual that a ten-year-old Autarch should *not* be\nremarked upon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who besides Sev in tBotNS remarks that Typhon has two heads? Surely,\nhowever, he's one of a kind! Whereas boy-emperors have been common\nthroughout history, whether in Asia, Europe or Africa, and probably not\nconsidered altogether unusual back in the day. Moreover, in the\nCommonwealth, it's Father Inire who wields the real power, no matter how\nold the autarch is.\n\nWolfe, as I believe is commonly acknowledged, often leaves it to his\nreaders to figure out the names of certain characters he specifically\ndoes not identify, and as a perusal of the archives will show,\napparently you yourself were surprised that Number Five's real name in\nFifth Head turned out to be Gene Wolfe. (See\nhttp://urth.net/urth/archives/v0008/0692.shtml) So it doesn't\nparticularly astonish me that for excess of a -\"p\", you don't believe\nthat someone who has been trained as a honey steward, worked in the\nkitchens of the House Absolute, is sterile like a bee, and has a name\nthat is nearly identical with 'apian' can be the penultimate autarch.\n\nPlus your argument also begs this additional question. If the\npenultimate autarch's name is *not* Appian, then what is it? And if it's\nindeterminable, why, in a book that has hundred of named characters,\noften who play only a very minor or marginal role (indeed, there are\ndozens who never even appear on-stage), does he leave in forfeit the\nname of this most noble man, the would-be saviour of Urth, who attempts\nto bring back the New Sun, but comes home a castrado? " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608281335o3542469as87d25773439bd5c4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T20:35:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<1156795311.22199.269598888@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/28/06, Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n wrote:\nPlus your argument also begs this additional question. If the\npenultimate autarch's name is *not* Appian, then what is it? And if it's\nindeterminable, why, in a book that has hundred of named characters,\noften who play only a very minor or marginal role (indeed, there are\ndozens who never even appear on-stage), does he leave in forfeit the\nname of this most noble man, the would-be saviour of Urth, who attempts\nto bring back the New Sun, but comes home a castrado?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What it is I don't have an answer for. But I have several ideas on\nwhy his name might be concealed, beginning with the possibility\nthat he may be one of Severian's grandparents." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c6cafc$03ab11b0$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T23:45:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608281335o3542469as87d25773439bd5c4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems a little strange that Severian can describe\n'his' Autarch as almost like 'a plump woman of 40' and not wonder how\nsomeone who has been doing the job for at least 62 years could look\nso\nyoung." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stranger still that the penultimate autarch, who looks like \"a plump\nwoman of forty,\" can have been trained in his duties as honey steward\nover fifty years ago, which, depending on his age when he started\n(5-12,\nwhich even you agree with), would make him at least fifty-five, if not\nin his early sixties. So \"he\" obviously cannot be forty. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, you're either misreading or misquoting me. I didn't say the\nAutarch was 40, I didn't even say he looked like he was 40. I said\nSeverian said that the Autarch looked almost like 'a plump woman of 40'.\nAnd he does say that. Nobody is saying the old Autarch is 40. Severian\nis saying he *almost* looks like a plump woman of 40. It's a simile,\ndude. \n\nThe significance? The old Autarch doesn't look like a man of 72, which\nis how old he would be in the entirely unsubstantiated case that he was\nAppian and Appian gained the throne at age ten, 62 years ago. The idea\nof a eunuch in his late 50s, running to fat and with, as Severian tells\nus, an unlined face, being poetically described as *almost* like a plump\nwoman of 40, I have no problem with.\n\nAs for your idea that Appian was a 'boy-emperor'... OK, purely for the\nsake of argument, let's pretend for a moment that Appian did attain the\nthrone at age ten, even though there is absolutely no textual evidence\nfor this. Now tell me how you know that Appian attained the throne just\n62 years before Severian became Autarch.\n\nI'm all ears. All Odilo tells us, in The Cat, is that 62 years before\nSeverian became Autarch, the Autarch Appian gave his permission for\nSancha to leave the House Absolute. How long had Appian been Autarch\nthen? We're not told. Why not 20 years? Why not 40? \n\nEven to get an Autarch who is merely an implausible 72-years-old, you\nhave to invent an entirely not-textual boy-Autarch and balance this\ninvention on top of an entirely non-textual ascent to the throne 62\nyears ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and as a perusal of the archives will show,\napparently you yourself were surprised that Number Five's real name in\nFifth Head turned out to be Gene Wolfe. (See\nhttp://urth.net/urth/archives/v0008/0692.shtml) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was nice of you to go the trouble of digging up an eight-year-old\npost like that; thank you for showing everyone that when someone does\ncome up with a good argument, which can be backed-up by the text, I'm\nhappy to go along with it. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Plus your argument also begs this additional question. If the\npenultimate autarch's name is *not* Appian, then what is it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedantically speaking, that's 'raising the question', not begging it.\nBegging the question, interestingly enough, is where you state something\nthat can only be proved true if your argument is true, and then use that\nto try to prove that your argument is true. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<11C9528C-8D8D-4923-A2E4-B4684AFD8AFF@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T23:53:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6cafc$03ab11b0$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 28, 2006, at 4:45 PM, Tony Ellis wrote:\nAgain, you're either misreading or misquoting me. I didn't say the\nAutarch was 40, I didn't even say he looked like he was 40. I said\nSeverian said that the Autarch looked almost like 'a plump woman of \n40'.\nAnd he does say that. Nobody is saying the old Autarch is 40. Severian\nis saying he *almost* looks like a plump woman of 40. It's a simile,\ndude." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bah!\n\nI am going to flog, again, my Theory Of Stupid Onomastics and invoke \nSeverian's Crappy Narrative Skills to suggest that the old Autarch \n*is* a plump woman of 40, and therefore her name is \"Vera.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1156817280.22130.269627848@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2006-08-29T02:08:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6cafc$03ab11b0$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:45:16 +0100, \"Tony Ellis\"\n said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm all ears. All Odilo tells us, in The Cat, is that 62 years before\nSeverian became Autarch, the Autarch Appian gave his permission for\nSancha to leave the House Absolute. How long had Appian been Autarch\nthen? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A significant portion of your argument relies on the chronology\npresented in \"The Cat,\" which I've now just reread in conjunction with\nRoy Lackey's recent post. Using figures from the story Roy calculates\nLomer's age to be 96, and I can see no mistakes in his math. So do\nyou too contend Lomer is 96? (Ditto for fellow prisoner Nicarete, who\nseems \"almost equally old\"?) And can this actually be right given\nconditions in the antechamber, where the prisoner's diet seems to\nconsist of coffee and sweet rolls, and they're frequently roughed up by\nmalicious exultant punks? Or is it more likely that Wolfe screwed up his\nnumbers? Obviously, I think the latter more probable. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was nice of you to go the trouble of digging up an eight-year-old\npost like that; thank you for showing everyone that when someone does\ncome up with a good argument, which can be backed-up by the text, I'm\nhappy to go along with it. :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was a shameless cheap shot on my part and I apologize for using it,\nbut I was amused when I read it recently because I generally have been\nimpressed by the tenor and substance of your postings. Perhaps even now\nyou're right and the various proponents of the\nAppian-as-penultimate-autarch are wrong. But I still distrust \nnumbers generated purely by an ancillary story and thus continue to\nfavor the ap(p)ian-honey steward association. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00aa01c6cb2f$f7e7c1a0$ef3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-29T05:57:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<1156817280.22130.269627848@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nBah!\n\nI am going to flog, again, my Theory Of Stupid Onomastics and invoke\nSeverian's Crappy Narrative Skills to suggest that the old Autarch\n*is* a plump woman of 40, and therefore her name is \"Vera.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Last night, you said it was \"Verus.\" \n\nAnyway, Severian specifically used the word \"unmanned\" to describe what\nhappened to his predecessor. (URTH, 153)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<42DFC2D7-1320-445E-9BB5-8BD4084C2639@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-29T06:05:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<00aa01c6cb2f$f7e7c1a0$ef3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 28, 2006, at 10:57 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Bah!\n\nI am going to flog, again, my Theory Of Stupid Onomastics and invoke\nSeverian's Crappy Narrative Skills to suggest that the old Autarch\n*is* a plump woman of 40, and therefore her name is \"Vera.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Last night, you said it was \"Verus.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's Verus if it's actually a man. Was actually a man. You \nknow what I mean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, Severian specifically used the word \"unmanned\" to describe \nwhat\nhappened to his predecessor. (URTH, 153)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, well, the Theory Of Stupid Onomastics should only be treated \nslightly more seriously than the We Are All Severian! Theory.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00e301c6cb35$4edab8a0$ef3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-29T06:35:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<42DFC2D7-1320-445E-9BB5-8BD4084C2639@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus wrote:\nA significant portion of your argument relies on the chronology\npresented in \"The Cat,\" which I've now just reread in conjunction with\nRoy Lackey's recent post. Using figures from the story Roy calculates\nLomer's age to be 96, and I can see no mistakes in his math. So do\nyou too contend Lomer is 96? (Ditto for fellow prisoner Nicarete, who\nseems \"almost equally old\"?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Worse, she, at least, was still alive ten years after the antechamber scene,\nwhen Sev was writing his manuscript. He ordered her brought to him while he\nwas writing just before leaving for Yesod.\n\nNo one has tried to fit in Palaemon's statement about Maruthas. Either\nAppian or Maruthas or both were in office within memory of at least three\npeople who were still living the year Sev became autarch.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.3.4.2.20060829164020.02ecf0f0@localhost>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-08-29T15:50:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<1156795311.22199.269598888@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 21:01 28/08/2006, Rex Lycanthrosaurus wrote:\nis sterile like a bee" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry to be coming to this late, but just as a point of pedantry, \nonly female (worker) bees are sterile -- I think that male bees are \ninvariably fully sexed.\n\nAnd I think I would be rather disappointed if Wolfe did intend \n\"Appian\" mainly to convey \"Apian\". Other references of Appian -- (a) \nthe C2 historian of that name, and (b) the most important road into \nRome, built by the populist consul Appius Claudius. Dunno quite where \nthose take us though.\n\nMo" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-29T16:55:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.3.4.2.20060829164020.02ecf0f0@localhost>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 29, 2006, at 8:50 AM, Mo Holkar wrote:\nAnd I think I would be rather disappointed if Wolfe did intend\n\"Appian\" mainly to convey \"Apian\". Other references of Appian -- (a)\nthe C2 historian of that name, and (b) the most important road into\nRome, built by the populist consul Appius Claudius. Dunno quite where\nthose take us though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, my Theory Of Stupid Onomastics (\"Appian->Vera/Verus->Severian\") \nrelies on (b). The Appian Way takes us to Rome, of course. Or to \nBrindisi if we're walking in the other direction. Neither of which \nhave anything, alas, to do with the New Sun.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-29T19:29:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "p.s. Me three on Paeon as aquastor to Malrubius" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops, in my last post I meant Paeon as aquastor to Appian! umm..Vera/Verus, \nummm Old Autarch...um...\n\nOkay, I think we are now all agreed he had been honey steward and he should \nthus be addressed as My Sweet Lord. ;-)\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c6cbbf$082ee180$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-08-29T23:01:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Appian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rex wrote:\nUsing figures from the story Roy calculates\nLomer's age to be 96, and I can see no mistakes in his math. So do\nyou too contend Lomer is 96? (Ditto for fellow prisoner Nicarete, who\nseems \"almost equally old\"?) And can this actually be right given\nconditions in the antechamber, where the prisoner's diet seems to\nconsist of coffee and sweet rolls, and they're frequently roughed up by\nmalicious exultant punks? Or is it more likely that Wolfe screwed up\nhis\nnumbers? Obviously, I think the latter more probable. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it matters. Maybe Wolfe thinks that 96 is a plausible age\nfor Lomer, and maybe he never stopped to think how old he was forcing\nLomer to be. Either way, 62 years remains the figure that The Cat gives\nus for the gap between Appian's rule and the start of Severian's, and\nit's as much a part of that story as the name Appian itself.\n\nAs a personal aside: I don't tend to think of TBotNS as a realistic\nnovel in the conventional sense. I don't find Severian stumbling across\na 96-year-old man in an ancient Waiting Room any more implausible than\nthe Waiting Room itself. Later, he finds another old man in a little\nhouse in the absolute middle of nowhere, and he turns out to be a\nschoolmate of Fechin. (And how old would *he* have to be?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This was a shameless cheap shot on my part and I apologize." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very nice of you to say so. Think nothing of it." } ] } ] }