{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4699", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4699, "subject": "Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "messages": 18, "voices": 9, "first": "2006-08-27T20:22:49+00:00", "last": "2006-09-01T19:31:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<44F1FF19.2000904@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-27T20:22:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "People (I won't embarass Bob, Iorwerth, Dan'l, or Matthew by mentioning \ntheir names),\n\nPlease lay off the top-posting; it makes your posts very hard to follow. \nEven if your mail program puts your cursor at the top of the quoted \nmaterial to which you are replying, there is nothing to stop you from \nmoving to the bottom before beginning to type in your received wisdom, \nand following the conventional flow of reading down columns of English \neases the reader's eye.\n\nYou can read more about it here:\nhttp://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting.html\n\nThanks,\nJeff" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608272203p3d604840hd2b6869e6548b148@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T05:03:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<44F1FF19.2000904@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff,\n\nI top-post, as a general rule, only when I don't think there's\na need for interleaving (an ugly word; I coined the word\n\"coinscription\" to describe the way we write inside each\nothers' texts in email/mailing lists, and will take this\noppty to plug it). As a general rule, I try to write such notes\nso that no context is required and cut the original out\ncompletely -- as here; but sometimes I forget to cut it.\n\nAnd sometimes, considering that, due to the vagiaries\nof mailing programs and such, some may see the reply\nbefore the original, I'll deliberately leave the original\nbelow to provide that context. But it's usually just a mistake\n(forgetting or laziness), since I believe that the coinscriptive\nstyle is causing many people to forget how to write a\ncoherent reply without coinscribing.\n\nI'll try to be better about it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44F27D52.3060508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T05:21:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608272203p3d604840hd2b6869e6548b148@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nJeff,\n\nI top-post, as a general rule, only when I don't think there's\na need for interleaving (an ugly word; I coined the word\n\"coinscription\" to describe the way we write inside each\nothers' texts in email/mailing lists, and will take this\noppty to plug it). As a general rule, I try to write such notes\nso that no context is required and cut the original out\ncompletely -- as here; but sometimes I forget to cut it.\n\nAnd sometimes, considering that, due to the vagiaries\nof mailing programs and such, some may see the reply\nbefore the original, I'll deliberately leave the original\nbelow to provide that context. But it's usually just a mistake\n(forgetting or laziness), since I believe that the coinscriptive\nstyle is causing many people to forget how to write a\ncoherent reply without coinscribing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When would people *need* to write a coherent reply without coinscribing \nor interleaving, or just plain bottom posting like I'm doing now?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T10:38:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<44F27D52.3060508@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I, for one, find top posting to be preferable in many cases. Especially \nwhen a response is more general in nature as opposed to point by point. I \nfind it annoying to have to re-read (or skip over) paragraphs of stuff I've \nalready read in previous posts just to get to the content of the current \npost.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T11:47:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<44F1FF19.2000904@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I generally don't find top-posting hard to follow (yes, I'm doing this on \npurpose), especially on a relatively low-volume list where the post that's \nbeing responded to is fairly recognizable. I save interleaving for posts \nthat have individual points that need to be addressed separately. To \ninterleave on a post like this, for example, I would have to sit there and \nselectively prune out the text that wasn't directly relevant to my response; \nthis can sometimes lead to a pretty confusing, mangled post. On the other \nhand if you don't prune you end up with two pages of quoted text with a \nsingle-sentence response at the bottom that can be easily mistaken for a sig \n- posts like that usually go in the trash bin without being read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "People (I won't embarass Bob, Iorwerth, Dan'l, or Matthew by mentioning\ntheir names),\n\nPlease lay off the top-posting; it makes your posts very hard to follow.\nEven if your mail program puts your cursor at the top of the quoted\nmaterial to which you are replying, there is nothing to stop you from\nmoving to the bottom before beginning to type in your received wisdom,\nand following the conventional flow of reading down columns of English\neases the reader's eye.\n\nYou can read more about it here:\nhttp://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting.html\n\nThanks,\nJeff\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T11:49:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<44F27D52.3060508@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're using an interesting new sig, Dan'l." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff,\n\nI top-post, as a general rule, only when I don't think there's\na need for interleaving (an ugly word; I coined the word\n\"coinscription\" to describe the way we write inside each\nothers' texts in email/mailing lists, and will take this\noppty to plug it). As a general rule, I try to write such notes\nso that no context is required and cut the original out\ncompletely -- as here; but sometimes I forget to cut it.\n\nAnd sometimes, considering that, due to the vagiaries\nof mailing programs and such, some may see the reply\nbefore the original, I'll deliberately leave the original\nbelow to provide that context. But it's usually just a mistake\n(forgetting or laziness), since I believe that the coinscriptive\nstyle is causing many people to forget how to write a\ncoherent reply without coinscribing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When would people *need* to write a coherent reply without coinscribing\nor interleaving, or just plain bottom posting like I'm doing now?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608281051y6d14865ej254db0b959c5b743@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T17:52:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<44F27D52.3060508@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/27/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWhen would people *need* to write a coherent reply without\ncoinscribing or interleaving, or just plain bottom posting like I'm\ndoing now?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When writing real letters on paper. It's something of an art that I\ndon't want to vanish from our culture.\n\n(And, see, I _do_ bottom-post when it makes sense to do so!)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608281052j503754f0ufb1a6914c47573ca@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T17:52:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/28/06, Chris wrote:\nYou're using an interesting new sig, Dan'l." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Iorwerth Thomas", "address": "iorweththomas at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-28T19:19:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<44F1FF19.2000904@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "People (I won't embarass Bob, Iorwerth, Dan'l, or Matthew by mentioning\ntheir names),\n\nPlease lay off the top-posting...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah. Oops. Normally I'm more careful. Will do better.\n\nIorwerth" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44F3CC77.9050104@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-08-29T05:11:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608281051y6d14865ej254db0b959c5b743@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 8/27/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When would people *need* to write a coherent reply without\ncoinscribing or interleaving, or just plain bottom posting like I'm\ndoing now?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When writing real letters on paper. It's something of an art that I\ndon't want to vanish from our culture.\n\n(And, see, I _do_ bottom-post when it makes sense to do so!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As a counterexample, top-posting has apparently addled one poster here \nto the point where he replies to my post as if you wrote it, \ncomplimenting you on a sig that it does not contain!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maru dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-01T00:07:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608272203p3d604840hd2b6869e6548b148@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/28/06, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nJeff,\n\nI top-post, as a general rule, only when I don't think there's\na need for interleaving (an ugly word; I coined the word\n\"coinscription\" to describe the way we write inside each\nothers' texts in email/mailing lists, and will take this\noppty to plug it). As a general rule, I try to write such notes\nso that no context is required and cut the original out\ncompletely -- as here; but sometimes I forget to cut it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally, I rather like the term \"interleaving\". To me, it makes it\nsound as if our conversations are collaboratively authoring a book,\neach page of which is a section.\n\n~maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608311737i22d5c8dfl3663dcaffe0ab407@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-01T00:37:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/31/06, maru dubshinki wrote:\nPersonally, I rather like the term \"interleaving\". To me, it makes it\nsound as if our conversations are collaboratively authoring a book,\neach page of which is a section." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whereas I get twitchy when I hear or read the word \"author\" used as\na verb..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44F7C2FD.3090201@charter.net>", "from": { "name": "JWillard", "address": "aldenweer at charter.net" }, "date": "2006-09-01T05:19:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608311737i22d5c8dfl3663dcaffe0ab407@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 8/31/06, maru dubshinki wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Personally, I rather like the term \"interleaving\". To me, it makes it\nsound as if our conversations are collaboratively authoring a book,\neach page of which is a section.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whereas I get twitchy when I hear or read the word \"author\" used as\na verb...\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why? It's in the OED. Have we stumbled upon a concern lexicological, \nBarthesian, or other? Your ellipsis is practically tapping its toes out \nof impatience to explain itself..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609010757l12e4703eq6dc6e7a339c813b2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-01T14:57:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<44F7C2FD.3090201@charter.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/31/06, JWillard wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whereas I get twitchy when I hear or read the word \"author\" used as\na verb..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why? It's in the OED." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So are \"D'oh!\" and \"Bling-bling.\" I'm a bit of a lexicological\nconservative, and don't like the use of a noun as a verb, at\nleast where there's a perfectly good and commonly known\nverb (\"write\") that can do the job quite well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have we stumbled upon a concern lexicological,\nBarthesian, or other? Your ellipsis is practically tapping its toes out\nof impatience to explain itself..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eh? It was intended as a mark of self-deprecation, that's\nall. The voice trailing off, somewhat embarrassed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1087.66.241.92.147.1157129930.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2006-09-01T16:58:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608311737i22d5c8dfl3663dcaffe0ab407@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/31/06, maru dubshinki wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Personally, I rather like the term \"interleaving\". To me, it makes it\nsound as if our conversations are collaboratively authoring a book,\neach page of which is a section." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whereas I get twitchy when I hear or read the word \"author\" used as\na verb..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So nu?\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1090.66.241.92.147.1157130056.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2006-09-01T17:00:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370609010757l12e4703eq6dc6e7a339c813b2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/31/06, JWillard wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eh? It was intended as a mark of self-deprecation, that's\nall. The voice trailing off, somewhat embarrassed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At least you are embarrassed.\n\nThat's a good first step.\n\nWith practice, you may reach the point where you have no need to be\nembarrassed.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<83BEA3E8-ACC9-4D42-B2A6-3302586F3803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-01T19:20:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370609010757l12e4703eq6dc6e7a339c813b2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 1, 2006, at 10:57 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 8/31/06, JWillard wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Whereas I get twitchy when I hear or read the word \"author\" used as\na verb..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why? It's in the OED." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So are \"D'oh!\" and \"Bling-bling.\" I'm a bit of a lexicological\nconservative, and don't like the use of a noun as a verb, at\nleast where there's a perfectly good and commonly known\nverb (\"write\") that can do the job quite well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Move to France. :) France has a language academy that officially \ndecides what is and is not French. If a foreign word becomes overly \npopular, they come up with a Frencher word to replace it.\n\nEnglish is as it is used, unfortunately, by any people who use it, no \nmatter their level of education or sophistication. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609011231w39ff2062p2faf8ca8794ca62@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-01T19:31:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Top Posting Makes The Theoanthropos Cry", "in_reply_to": "<83BEA3E8-ACC9-4D42-B2A6-3302586F3803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/1/06, Transentient wrote:\nMove to France. :) France has a language academy that officially\ndecides what is and is not French. If a foreign word becomes overly\npopular, they come up with a Frencher word to replace it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but they don't speak English very well there. My problem is\nnot a generic love of grammar for its own sake but a deep love\nof the English language." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "English is as it is used, unfortunately, by any people who use it, no\nmatter their level of education or sophistication." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is undeniably true. Nor am I a complete grammar crank who\nshudders at a split infinitive or a well-used dangling modifier. But\nI think changes that weaken the language ought to be resisted, and\n\"author\" as a verb weakens the language. I'm not going to give a\ndetailed explanation of why I think so -- this is still a list for discussing\nthe works of Gene Wolfe, last I looked, and not a grammarian's\nalcove -- but I'll say that I can't imagine a case in which the shorter,\nmore direct \"write\" isn't better. \"Never use two syllables when one\nwill do,\"\n\nAlso: the Anglo-saxon word is almost always more powerful in\nEnglish than the Latinate. (Which is why I try not to refer to Wolfe,\nor any other writer, as an \"author.\")" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] } ] }