{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4704", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4704, "subject": "Bee Wrangler", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2006-08-29T02:57:55+00:00", "last": "2006-08-30T23:42:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1156820275.26322.269630742@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2006-08-29T02:57:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bee Wrangler", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Found the one other bee-related quote I was looking for, and append it,\nif for nothing other than to answer Roy Lackey's question about what\nexactly it is Paeon teaches the penultimate autarch. \n\n\"The dead Autarch, whose face I had seen in scarlet ruin a few moments\nbefore, now lived again. My eyes and hands were his, I knew the work of\nthe hives of the bees of the House Absolute and the sacredness of them,\nwho steer by the sun and fetch gold of Urth's fertility. I knew his\ncourse to the Phoenix Throne, and to the stars, and back.\" (Citadel,\nChapter XXIX)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002901c6cbea$0c118b60$ec3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-30T04:09:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bee Wrangler", "in_reply_to": "<1156820275.26322.269630742@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus quoted:\n\n\"The dead Autarch, whose face I had seen in scarlet ruin a few moments\nbefore, now lived again. My eyes and hands were his, I knew the work of\nthe hives of the bees of the House Absolute and the sacredness of them,\nwho steer by the sun and fetch gold of Urth's fertility. I knew his\ncourse to the Phoenix Throne, and to the stars, and back.\" (Citadel,\nChapter XXIX)\n\nDamn! I forgot that and should not have, particularly in this context.\n\nStill, while the quote establishes a link between bees and the Old Autarch,\nthat does not make him Sancha's Appian. If the Old Autarch had been a boy\nwhen he was trained, and went to Yesod as a relatively young man a\nquarter-century before Paeon told him about Sev, then he would not have been\nparticularly old when he made his lament about not thinking his replacement\nwould be \"so soon\". If, however, he had held the throne for more than sixty\nyears at that point, his complaint would be unreasonable.\n\nI think my earlier list of the last four rulers makes more sense, and better\nreconciles the apparent with the actual age of the Old Autarch. Lomer's and\nNicarete's longevity can't be helped, no matter who was autarch when.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608292205w264b411biada2a3a7a250bbd9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-30T05:05:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bee Wrangler", "in_reply_to": "<002901c6cbea$0c118b60$ec3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jumping in to be a pain in the ass." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/29/06, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIf the Old Autarch had been a boy\nwhen he was trained, and went to Yesod as a relatively young man a\nquarter-century before Paeon told him about Sev, then he would not\nhave been particularly old when he made his lament about not\nthinking his replacement would be \"so soon\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It ain't necessarily so, Roy. In fact ... I think you've just pried open\nan important argument for the pro-Appian camp.\n\nHow long was the Predecessor gone?\n\nMore accurately: how much time passed for him, and how much\ntime passed on Urth, between his departure and his return? We\nknow that Severian's journey didn't take too much subjective time,\nbut he returned years after his departure.\n\nSuch considerations make it plausible to me that the Autarch\nhas reigned longer than it seems, looking at him, he could possibly\nhave done." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-30T11:53:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time and Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608292205w264b411biada2a3a7a250bbd9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I personally find the Appian thing to be a matter of little interest, \nafter looking at all the posts I'm no longer convinced I am right. I do \nbelieve that it may be a part of the \"malleability and disconnectedness of \ntime\" that seems to be a major factor in so many of Wolfe's books. The \nvagueness deliberate and, perhaps, the answer not even something Wolfe \nbelieved relevant to his story and \"fleshed out\"?\n\nHow long was the Predecessor gone?\n\nMore accurately: how much time passed for him, and how much\ntime passed on Urth, between his departure and his return? We\nknow that Severian's journey didn't take too much subjective time,\nbut he returned years after his departure.\n\nSuch considerations make it plausible to me that the Autarch\nhas reigned longer than it seems, looking at him, he could possibly\nhave done." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c6cc6e$cb81fb40$d33ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-08-30T19:59:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bee Wrangler", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370608292205w264b411biada2a3a7a250bbd9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\nHow long was the Predecessor gone?\n\nMore accurately: how much time passed for him, and how much\ntime passed on Urth, between his departure and his return? We\nknow that Severian's journey didn't take too much subjective time,\nbut he returned years after his departure.\n\nSuch considerations make it plausible to me that the Autarch\nhas reigned longer than it seems, looking at him, he could possibly\nhave done." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is not the least hint in the text that the Old Autarch was absent from\nUrth for any significant length of time, whether measured subjectively or\nobjectively. Whether he was in his fifties or his eighties doesn't change\nthe fact that 50 years before his death he was being trained by Paeon and\nmessing with bees. And that was 12 years after Autarch Appian let Sancha\nmove south. I seriously doubt that the Old Autarch was autarch when he first\nknew Paeon, or that he would be learning all about bees at least a dozen\nyears after coming to the throne.\n\nAnd Maruthas closing the roads when Palaemon was 25 still has to be\naccounted for.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c6cc8b$d9efce10$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-08-30T23:27:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bee Wrangler", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c6cc6e$cb81fb40$d33ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\nIt ain't necessarily so, Roy. In fact ... I think you've just pried\nopen\nan important argument for the pro-Appian camp." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rex\n(http://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2006-August/002\n622.html) and Roy\n(http://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2006-August/002\n629.html) have already touched on this, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How long was the Predecessor gone?\n\nMore accurately: how much time passed for him, and how much\ntime passed on Urth, between his departure and his return? We\nknow that Severian's journey didn't take too much subjective time,\nbut he returned years after his departure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Years *before*, surely?\n\n\nIn any case, as Roy says, the penultimate Autarch needn't have been gone\nany time at all. Why should Tzadkiel and co risk the Commonwealth\nfalling to the armies of Erebus in his absence when they are masters of\ntime travel, and can bring him back the day after he left?\n\nMy own problem with the old Autarch going to Yesod and coming back 20\nyears later or 20 years younger is that there's just no support for it\nin the text. If the old Autarch really has been in power for *at least*\nthe last 62 years, why doesn't Severian comment on how implausibly\nyouthful he looks?\n\nIf someone wants to argue that evidence isn't required, that this\nslight-of-time could have happened regardless of the fact that Wolfe\ndoesn't say anything about it, I can just as easily argue the reverse.\nWho's to say the Autarch didn't come back from Yesod significantly older\nthan when he left, as Gunnie says happen to some people who travel on\nthe Ship?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370608301642q35a3ed55g3e1b63f0e14ee79b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-08-30T23:42:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bee Wrangler", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6cc8b$d9efce10$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/30/06, Tony Ellis wrote:\nIn any case, as Roy says, the penultimate Autarch needn't have\nbeen gone any time at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, you're quite right; he could have been gone from three seconds\nto three decades, or less, or more. But the point is not to argue that\nthe Penult _did_ skip a couple of decades; it's simply that he _could_\nhave, and so his apparent age is not an overwhelming argument for\nhis not being Appian, even if (as I believe) there's no life-extension\ntechnology available to the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why should Tzadkiel and co risk the Commonwealth\nfalling to the armies of Erebus in his absence when they are masters of\ntime travel, and can bring him back the day after he left?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't particularly see this as a risk -- not only is Father Inire\nperfectly capable of keeping things going without the Autarch,\nthe Penult is a double agent for Erebus (via Vodalus) ... or\nsomething." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] } ] }