{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4707", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4707, "subject": "Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "messages": 35, "voices": 15, "first": "2006-09-04T11:28:31+00:00", "last": "2006-09-23T04:00:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<44FC0DDF.9090405@charter.net>", "from": { "name": "JWillard", "address": "aldenweer at charter.net" }, "date": "2006-09-04T11:28:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe this is a dumb idea, but I thought today that it might be \ninteresting to start a close-reading project, beginning at the beginning \nwith Shadow of the Torturer. Anyone who's interested could join in. In \na thread like this title, we could start to gather questions and \nobservations (specific and general), for each chapter and inch our way \nforward. (A chapter every few days or every week wouldn't take too much \ntime away from any other reading.) I know that I've reached a point of \nfrustration: I keep wanting to gather what I have learned (think I've \nlearned) from Wolfe's books, but find my thoughts are more and more \nscattered and that I have less and less time to just sit down and \nre-read each book from cover to cover on a regular basis. I wonder if \ngoing back to square one and bouncing ideas off of each other will yield \nsomething of worth.\n\nIf you think this sounds like an invitation to navel-gazing, well ... \nI'd say our devotion to these particular works has already marked us all \nas navel-gazers. I reject any sentiment along the lines of: \"That \nsentence is very important, but that other sentence doesn't mean \nanything. I just know!\" As no one has delivered a comprehensive key to \nthe Wolfe opus, I don't believe in trivial trivia, provided one can ask \nan interesting question or defend an interesting observation about it.\n\nSo, in a nutshell, starting with Chapter I, everything you think is \nimportant about it: characters, events, onomastics, rarefied vocabulary \nchoices, things, foods, Urth-specific names (mystes, asimi, etc.), the \nobvious, the not-so-obvious, nagging doubts/questions, wild \nspeculations. I realize that things will be repeated: the idea is to \ngather them so that we're not constantly searching.\n\nSo, to leap in:\nI find Drotte's line, \"You must know that for certain simples to attain \ntheir highest virtues they must be pulled from the grave by moonlight,\" \ndarker now, as Vodalus and crew are pulling a kind of simple from the \ngrave by Lunelight.\n\nDid Wolfe pick saint names by language for a reason? Why Roche, and not \nthe Latin form, which I come across often. Why the odd form for \nVodalus? Where's Eata from? Are these clues?\n\nA reminder of why I walk through Wolfe like a minefield: description of \nVodalus, \"I could see him through the fog, very tall, slender...\" Very \ntall of course implies something familiar upon first reading, not alien \nbasketball player.\n\nThea: \"nearly as tall as ... Vodalus.\" Two dove metaphors: \"Her voice \nwas like a dove's call...\" and \"As if a dove had momentarily commanded \nan arctother ...\" Why? Significance of the heart-shaped face?\n\nIs there anything odd about Hildegrin never having used a pistol?\n\n\"and what power of Erebus's gives you the right to come here and do \nsomething like this?\" Something interesting I found in the W2 awhile \nago: According to some sources, Charon is the son of Erebus. Is Erebus \nsomehow Severian's great-grandfather? Is this line a joke: Severian \nbeing the \"power of Erebus\"?\n\nA Vodalarius is a follower of Vodalus. What is Severian a follower of \n(figuratively or literally)? There are, if I recall, many saints named \nSeverus. Is there a hidden Severus in BOTNS? W2 def. for Severian: \nEccl. Hist. a One of a sect of Encratite Gnostics of the 2d century. b \nA follower of Severus, the Monophysite patriarch of Antioch of the 6th \ncentury, who taught that the body of Christ, prior to his resurrection, \nwas subject to corruption.\n\nSuspicious sentence: \"The knife had somehow fallen from the dead man's \nneck. Perhaps he had pulled it out in his agony.\" Whenever Severian \nuses a perhaps, or one of its relatives, I get nervous. What other \npurpose would the line have? Is this someone half-healed by Severian's \npresence? Something entirely different?\n\n\"Of those values ... I accepted only one: loyalty to the guild.\" Used \nto think this was noble. Now wonder, programming?\n\nWho was dug up? On a whim, thinking the line \"we'll have her out like a \ncarrot\" was somehow oddly specific, I googled 'carrot symbolism' and \nfound a coat of arms: \"Among the earliest people to bear the Carrot \nname were the Carrot family who lived in Cornwall. This name is derived \nfrom Welsh surname Caeriw, meaning dweller at the fort on the hill.\"\nhttp://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/qx/carrot-family-crest.htm\nWorthless? I don't know.\n\nSo this is a scattershot version of what I'm proposing, but there it \nis. Any takers?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44FC6939.3090908@joncapps.net>", "from": { "name": "Jon Capps", "address": "jon at joncapps.net" }, "date": "2006-09-04T17:58:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<44FC0DDF.9090405@charter.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JWillard wrote:\nMaybe this is a dumb idea, but I thought today that it might be \ninteresting to start a close-reading project, beginning at the beginning \nwith Shadow of the Torturer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm currently focusing on getting through the Soldier books in prep for \nSidon (I'm nearing the end of Mist), but I'd be more than willing to \nparticipate. Shadow and Claw is how I discovered Wolfe. I just \nfinished my third reading of New Sun this Spring, but I've never \nactually sat down to critically study it.\n\nOh, and I'm new to the list, so hello everybody. I'd meant to register \nabout the time Wizard was published, and never got around to it until how ;)\n\njon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060905071954.88492.qmail@web54202.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "nastler", "address": "nastler at yahoo.dk" }, "date": "2006-09-05T07:19:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<44FC0DDF.9090405@charter.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- JWillard skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe this is a dumb idea, but I thought today that\nit might be \ninteresting to start a close-reading project,\nbeginning at the beginning \nwith Shadow of the Torturer. (snip)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is an interesting idea. Would you be\nprepared to gather all the comments and edit into a\ncoherant list of observations for each chapter? Could\nbe fun...\n\nnastler" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-05T13:24:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<20060905071954.88492.qmail@web54202.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome to Jon Capps!\n\nJWillard writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe this is a dumb idea, but I thought today that it might be interesting \nto start a close-reading project....." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not dumb, but rather extremely ambitious. I'm willing to do anything to \nshed more light on BotNS. I'm not sure where to draw the line on what is \ntoo prosaic to be worth mentioning for this audience. The tone JWillard \nsets with his first chapter observations is pretty high on the esoteric \nscale.\n\nFor my contribution to Chapter 1 I'll draw attention to this reference \nregarding the three grave robbers: \"As though an amschaspand had touched \nthem with his radiant wand, the fog swirled and parted to let a beam of \ngreen moonlight fall.\"\n\nAmesha Spenta or Ameshaspand is a Persian deity of purified light who \nspecifically opposes the gods of darkness. This reminds me of Wolfe giving \na golden aureole to the unpleasant characters Agia and Agilus. Does this \nmean that people with nasty behavior can (or always do) contribute to a \nlarger holy purpose?\n\nI'd like to ask why Severian and companions were trying to get into the \ngraveyard at night, do we know? Eata was trying to slip through the bars \nand they seem afraid the guard will return. Yet Severian notes a path inside \nthe gate they had used to return to the Citadel in previous visits.\n\nFor What Its Worth comments on some of JWillard's observations and notes:\n\nOn Thea:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Significance of the heart-shaped face?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Contrast this to Thecla's triangular face (and widow's peak). What is the \nrelationship between a heart and triangle? Sunken cheeks? I've previously \nproposed a kaibit relationship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there anything odd about Hildegrin never having used a pistol?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it establishes him as a working class kind of guy while advanced \nweaponry is reserved for big shots with access to stellar technology. I \nthink pulling a dead body up like a \"carrot\" is another way to establish \nHildegrin as a badger, a digger, a practical guy who gets things done \nwithout sentiment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who was dug up?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A dark haired woman in a pale gown with a livid face (Allowin's Neckace?). \nShe has tribade (lesbian) tendencies according to Vodalus' followers. \nSeverian sees her face in Ultan's face. On Flood Day, Severian sees a dark \nhaired woman in a pale gown on the Path of Air with something familiar about \nher face. In Talos' play, the woman on the Road of Air is Contessa Carina. \nAny other clues people have spotted?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"and what power of Erebus's gives you the right to come here and do \nsomething like this?\" >Something interesting I found in the W2 awhile ago: \n According to some sources, Charon is the >son of Erebus. Is Erebus \nsomehow Severian's great-grandfather?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think so, Charon being the son of Erebus (darkness) and his sister, \nNyx (Night). And let's not forget that Charon's associate, Cerberus (Wolfe?) \nwas the son of Typhon and Echidna." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A Vodalarius is a follower of Vodalus. What is Severian a follower of \n(figuratively or literally)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always felt the Vodalus plot-line was meant to suggest that when we are \nyoung we often idolize negative people, buying into the glamour and \nrebellion. But later, when we gain wisdom, we see them exposed, as the false \ngold of a counterfeit chrisos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Suspicious sentence: \"The knife had somehow fallen from the dead man's \nneck. Perhaps he had >pulled it out in his agony.\" Whenever Severian uses \na perhaps, or one of its relatives, I get >nervous. What other purpose \nwould the line have? Is this someone half-healed by Severian's presence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting, I'd always thought Severian's first narrative act of healing \nwas Triskele. But perhaps this is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Of those values ... I accepted only one: loyalty to the guild.\" Used to \nthink this was noble. Now >wonder, programming?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From a religious, and especially Catholic perspective perhaps \"programming\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IS a noble thing. A child starts with blind faith, as a young adult spends \ntime doubting and questioning and pondering, eventually to the conclusion \nthat salvation lies only in blind faith. (Correct me if I'm wrong on that, \nespecially those who were Jesuit trained).\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "powens", "address": "powens at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-05T13:44:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JWillard writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe this is a dumb idea, but I thought today that it might be\ninteresting\nto start a close-reading project....." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Long time reader - first time poster (I think) Wouldn't this be a good time\nto start the Wiki? So that it can be added to as we cover each chapter?\n\nPollo" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52808DDB-D296-442A-B5E0-3A990F222EE0@ntlworld.com>", "from": { "name": "HHR", "address": "hubert.rogers at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2006-09-05T14:16:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5 Sep 2006, at 14:44, powens wrote:\n\nJWillard writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe this is a dumb idea, but I thought today that it might be \ninteresting\nto start a close-reading project....." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Long time reader - first time poster (I think) Wouldn't this be a \ngood time to start the Wiki? So that it can be added to as we cover \neach chapter?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds like a great idea. I'd very much enjoy hearing everyone's \nviews on the less obvious details of the chapters, I certainly \nremember last time I read the first few chapters of Shadow I was \namazed at how much detail there was that I had overlooked or \nforgotten the first time, and that I had never seen mention of on Urth.\n\nWith a Wiki we can each write up articles of as much or little detail \nas we like, as well as centralizing the work already existing out there." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1157471476.14982.270174140@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2006-09-05T15:51:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:24:40 -0400, \"b sharp\" \nsaid:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who was dug up?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A dark haired woman in a pale gown with a livid face (Allowin's\nNeckace?). \nShe has tribade (lesbian) tendencies according to Vodalus' followers. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're conflating two different women, I believe.\n\nThe first was disinterred back when Severian was still a boy; Drotte is\ncaptain of the apprentices at the time.\n\n*Years* subsequently pass. But from the conversation of the Vodalarii\n(\"Going far this time? Going to drown yourself again?\"), it seems\nreadily apparent they've been participating in corpse-eating all along,\nand not at several year intervals.\n\nEven on ice, a real carrot kept this long is hardly likely to be\ndelectable! \n\n \n " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-05T17:00:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<1157471476.14982.270174140@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding the woman in the coffin and the victim of Vodalarii corpse eating \nprevous to Thecla,\nRex says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're conflating two different women, I believe. The first was disinterred \nback when Severian >was still a boy; Drotte is captain of the apprentices \nat the time. *Years* subsequently pass." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I admit that I am not the stickler for timeframes that, say, Roy C. Lackey \nis, but I always thought it was months that pass between Severian's night in \nthe graveyard and his expulsion etc., not years. Severian may think of \nhimself as a boy but he is strong enough to defend Vodalus from the attack \nof an armed man.\n\nIt is summer (\"when the warm weather came\") when Severian almost drowns in \nGyoll. That night he is in the graveyard and receives a coin from Vodalus. \n\"It was Midmorning of the next day before I thought to look at the coin \nVodalus had given me\". It is on that same day Severian and other \napprentices are shown the flayed leg torture of a handmaiden we later learn \nis Hunna, servant of Thecla. She is being tortured to extract information \nabout Thea and Vodalus, just as Thecla supposedly is later. But is it years \nlater? I don't see any evidence for time passage except for a change of \nseason.\n\nIt is icy winter when Severian encounters Triskele and Valeria. I've always \nassumed he is elevated and meets Thecla within months after that. After he \nis expelled the weather is warm enough to sleep outdoors and eat in outdoor \ncafes. It seems pretty warm through Severian's travels (of course he is \ntravelling north toward the equator). Eventually, Citadel ends in Autumn. \nSo I've always thought BotNS takes place in a time frame a bit longer than 1 \nyear.\n\nRex says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it seems readily apparent they've been participating in corpse-eating all \nalong, and not at several >year intervals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can agree they probably don't wait years to eat each new corpse, but I \ndoubt it is a daily or weekly event. The ceremony is too elaborate. Eating \na corpse only makes sense if the person possessed some special knowledge, \nor, as in the case of Thecla, the person had a measure of loyalty to Vodalus \nthat he hoped to imbue in his followers.\n\nThecla's corpse may have been preserved with ice in a cave, but being \nsummer, I think the dead woman in the pale gown was eaten rather quickly \n(Thea and Hildegrin are both concerned about her freshness, ack!). So I \nthink the time span between ghoul meals was about 6 months.\n\nIs there counter-evidence for years passing that I am missing?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1157479435.29824.270184413@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2006-09-05T18:03:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:00:34 -0400, \"b sharp\" \nsaid:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thecla's corpse may have been preserved with ice in a cave, but being \nsummer, I think the dead woman in the pale gown was eaten rather quickly \n(Thea and Hildegrin are both concerned about her freshness, ack!). So I \nthink the time span between ghoul meals was about 6 months.\n\nIs there counter-evidence for years passing that I am missing?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"...in the year I am recounting, the year of the fight by the graveside,\nDrotte and Roche were elevated, leaving me captain of the apprentices.\"\n(I, Chapter V)\n\nElevation takes place on the Feast of Holy Katharine, which is at least\none half year away. (\"The day of our patroness falls in the fading of\nwinter.\")\n\nSeverian is not elevated to journeyman for *at least another year,* and\ngiven all the duties he must master as captain as apprentices, it may\nactually be two or three.\n\nSeverian is elevated at least a year-and-a-half after the graveyard\nencounter with Vodalus, and then, after he aids in Thecla's suicide, is\nexiled after ten days in the stir, whence commence the main events of\nVol.1: his encounters with Agia, Hildegrin, Baldanders, Dorcas, the\nmanomachy, the execution of Agilus, etc. Plus there's the time it takes\nhim to walk to Saltus before he's finally kidnapped by Vodalus and where\nin his journey to the rebel encampment he comments about how \"the\nfamiliarity of this place...recalls to me many summer days in our\nCitadel.\" \n\nSo at a very minimum two years have gone by, and it could be as many as\nthree or four." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders\n wherever you are" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c6d115$a964ed00$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-09-05T18:03:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close reading: Torturer chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<1157479435.29824.270184413@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nI'd like to ask why Severian and companions were trying to get into the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "graveyard at night, do we know? Eata was trying to slip through the\nbars \nand they seem afraid the guard will return. Yet Severian notes a path\ninside \nthe gate they had used to return to the Citadel in previous visits." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They're just returning to the Citadel after swimming in Gyoll - perhaps\nlater than usual because Severian almost drowned. And they *want* the\nguard to return - he was supposed to let them in. That much we're told\nin the chapter.\n\nThe implication is that the guard has been bribed to make himself scarce\nby Vodalus and co. I have it in my head that we're told this somewhere,\nbut that could be my imagination." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609051145w19a62addg41d6a68772d95d6d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-05T18:45:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<20060905071954.88492.qmail@web54202.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is an excellent idea. At the risk of repetition or\ncontradiction I will go ahead and make my comments before reading\nothers'. So pulling out my old copy of SHADOW, and with TextEdit\nopen...\n\nChapter title: \"Resurrection and Death\"\n\nA bit of irony here; death usually precedes resurrection. But, of\ncourse, \"resurrection\" in this case is meant in literal root sense,\nunburying, and so refers to Vodalus and his companions as\n\"resurrectionists.\" Severian's own first (?) death and resurrection,\nthough they have already happened earlier in the day, are postponed to\nthe second chapter. The imagery of the sepulcher is brought to bear\nright as a _memento mori_ hanging over the whole Book.\n\np9. IT IS POSSIBLE I already had some presentiment of my future.\n\nA rather haunting first line, for me. I used to think that tBotNS was\nan attempt at \"holographic\" prose -- the idea that, as when you cut up\na hologram, the whole picture, in less detail, is contained in each\npiece, so each chunk of the Book would contain an image of the whole.\nI no longer think this, but clearly there is a lot of cross-reference\nand cross-imagery, and this first sentence is a clue as to the why of\nit; time is not linear here. This first page is full of forward\nreferences:\n\n--The image of \"the locked and rusted gate,\" of which we shall be\nreminded at the end of SHADOW, as Severian tells us that he has taken\nus from one gate to another.\n\n--The gate is \"the symbol of my exile.\" Why \"the\" rather than \"a\"\nsymbol, I wonder?\n\n--Noting the \"thousands of paces of wall,\" Severian observes that \"It\nwas a walk I would take, much later.\"\n\nCertainly many of the book's themes are taken up by the end of this\nfirst chapter -- memory and death, wandering and exile, war and\nrevolution, truth, lies, and evasions, and so on.\n\np12. A man who had not spoken before said, \"I'm going to watch over my\nmother ... They could have her a league off by now.\"\n\nAt first I was puzzled by this, thinking this guy's mother must be\nsomeone special if the Vodalarii were going to take her; then I\nrealized, they're watching out for the \"ordinary\" anthropophagi as\nmuch as the Vodalarii.\n\nNow, there's an interesting phrase at the bottom of 14/top of 15.\nVodalus tells Hildegrin (as yet unnamed) to take his pistol, then\ntells the volunteers \"Guard yourselves!\" Then:\n\npp14-5. As if a dove had momentarily commanded an arctother, the woman\ntook the shining pistol from the heavy man's hand...\n\nNow, the heavy man is Hildegrin, who has just been given the pistol.\nBut who has commanded whom? Thea does not appear to have commanded\nanyone, yet it's hard to imagine Vodalus as \"a dove.\"\n\nThe fight between Vodalus and the volunteers is delightfully confused,\nmore like a real fight than most in fiction.\n\np16. He stumbled, as I have said. In that instant, I believe my whole\nlife teetered in the scales with his.\n\nIndeed it did; if the volunteers had prevailed and found him there\nwith Vodalus, they'd surely have taken him for the Vodalarius he would\nshortly claim to be, and kill him on the spot. But Severian is talking\nabout the change in his life that takes place because of the incidents\nthat follow, about how his accepting Vodalus's service led him to\n\"free\" Thecla and, ultimately, to the throne.\n\nWhy does Severian claim to be a Vodalarius? As he says,\n\np17. It was a term I had scarcely heard.\n\nIs it only because he needs a reason for being there, which won't lead\nto Vodalus killing him?\n\nNor, I think, does his explanation of the efficacy of the coin in\ncementing his service ring true. He goes out of his way to point out\nthat soldiers take their oath to the Autarch and are given a coin with\nthe Autarch's picture. Whose picture is on the coin Vodalus gives\nSeverian? Not Vodalus', to be sure; so the magickal explanation he\noffers simply doesn't wash." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609051152q152d017aj8bcdb43982ebb83c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-05T18:52:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<1157471476.14982.270174140@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It suddenly occurs to me, reading various responses to various\ncomments, that the \"carrot\" remark may suggest that the dead\nare buried vertically rather than horizontally, perhaps due to\nlimited space?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609051157t661675c0ib873654ed9fe581c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-05T18:57:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<1157479435.29824.270184413@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/5/06, Rex Lycanthrosaurus wrote:\nSeverian is not elevated to journeyman for *at least another year,* and\ngiven all the duties he must master as captain as apprentices, it may\nactually be two or three." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I'm pretty sure that Severian is Captain of Apprentices\nfor only one year; if I'm right, we'll come to the appropriate reference\nas we go through the book. And he has very little to \"master\" as\ncaptain -- he finds his work that year very light.\n\nStill, that makes it at least a year and a half from the graveyard\nsequence to the encounter with Vodalus in the wood.\n\nThe main action, Severian's wanderings, takes only a few months." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609051158v6197c68cq4844d7704c14efd9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-05T18:58:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close reading: Torturer chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6d115$a964ed00$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/5/06, Tony Ellis wrote:\nThe implication is that the guard has been bribed to make himself\nscarce by Vodalus and co. I have it in my head that we're told this\nsomewhere, but that could be my imagination." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We're given another explanation for the missing guard in the\nBOOK OF THE SHORT SUN." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001c01c6d11d$84943500$543ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-09-05T19:00:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370609051158v6197c68cq4844d7704c14efd9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nI admit that I am not the stickler for timeframes that, say, Roy C. Lackey\nis, but I always thought it was months that pass between Severian's night in\nthe graveyard and his expulsion etc., not years. Severian may think of\nhimself as a boy but he is strong enough to defend Vodalus from the attack\nof an armed man.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I ain't takin' sides, just being a stickler. \n\nThe day Severian almost drowned was the last day of the year on which it was\nstill warm enough to swim in the Gyoll. The weather turned cold the\nfollowing day. It was hog-slaughtering time down south, as evidenced by pork\nsoon appearing on the menu. Winter was coming on. At the beginning of the\nfollowing spring, Drotte and Roche were elevated to journeymen and Sev\nbecame captain of apprentices. The spring of the following year was when Sev\nbegan his exile. The Feast of Thecla was about 3 weeks after that. So it was\na little more than a year and a half between the graveyard scene and the\nFeast of Thecla.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c6d124$cd603520$8d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-09-05T19:52:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close reading: Torturer chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<001c01c6d11d$84943500$543ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l quoted and wrote:\nOn 9/5/06, Tony Ellis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The implication is that the guard has been bribed to make himself\nscarce by Vodalus and co. I have it in my head that we're told this\nsomewhere, but that could be my imagination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We're given another explanation for the missing guard in the\nBOOK OF THE SHORT SUN." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that theory was put forth some years ago. It's one of those theories\nthat is so neat it *ought* to be true. But it can't be.\n\nSeverian and his pals were swimming in the Gyoll, so the weather was still\nwarm enough for swimming. As b sharp recently noted, \"It is icy winter when\nSeverian encounters Triskele and Valeria.\"\n\nSev was outside trying to unclog a frozen drain pipe the day he found\nTriskele. The dog ran away a week later, and Sev met Valeria. There was snow\non the ground that day. It was winter when Sev had the dog. There is no way\nthat Sev went swimming that week, and there is no indication in IGJ that it\nwas winter when Silkhorn saw the dog.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609051314s3c3dc46bn9d663fd4f084bb53@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-05T20:14:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close reading: Torturer chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c6d124$cd603520$8d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/5/06, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSeverian and his pals were swimming in the Gyoll, so the weather was still\nwarm enough for swimming. As b sharp recently noted, \"It is icy winter when\nSeverian encounters Triskele and Valeria.\"\n\nSev was outside trying to unclog a frozen drain pipe the day he found\nTriskele. The dog ran away a week later, and Sev met Valeria. There was snow\non the ground that day. It was winter when Sev had the dog. There is no way\nthat Sev went swimming that week, and there is no indication in IGJ that it\nwas winter when Silkhorn saw the dog." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... so ... IGJ can't be reconciled with SotT at all?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44FDEED6.4000809@joncapps.net>", "from": { "name": "Jon Capps", "address": "jon at joncapps.net" }, "date": "2006-09-05T21:40:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wiki (was Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "powens wrote:\nLong time reader - first time poster (I think) Wouldn't this be a good \ntime to start the Wiki? So that it can be added to as we cover each \nchapter?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a hosting account that has not reached its domain limit, so I can \nsetup a wiki for the list if people want it. But this month is \n*extraordinarily* tight for me, so I cannot afford to purchase the \ndomain name.\n\nSo, if the list wants it, and can decide on a domain name, and someone's \nwilling to donate the $10 or so to get it (or to register the domain \nname oneself), I'll volunteer to host/admin the Urthwiki.\n\nOr, if it is decided that the wiki should be under the urth.net domain, \nI might be able to work with Ranjit on getting something set up.\n\njon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c6d17e$8e41cfc0$fd3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-09-06T06:34:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370609051314s3c3dc46bn9d663fd4f084bb53@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\nNow, there's an interesting phrase at the bottom of 14/top of 15.\nVodalus tells Hildegrin (as yet unnamed) to take his pistol, then\ntells the volunteers \"Guard yourselves!\" Then:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As long as we're looking at the minutiae of this chapter, I might as well\nremind people that there is a mistake in NEW SUN involving this exchange.\nVodalus definitely gave the pistol to Hildegrin. But later, Sev recalls the\nscene and has Vodalus giving it to Thea. The mistake is repeated in the\nappendix to CITADEL, so the mistake is probably Wolfe's.\n\nThere is another mistake on the second page, pointed out years ago by\nsomeone else (can't remember who), concerning whether it was Roche or Drotte\nwho said the approaching volunteers were carrying pikes. That mistake may or\nmay not be Sev's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "pp14-5. As if a dove had momentarily commanded an arctother, the woman\ntook the shining pistol from the heavy man's hand...\n\nNow, the heavy man is Hildegrin, who has just been given the pistol.\nBut who has commanded whom? Thea does not appear to have commanded\nanyone, yet it's hard to imagine Vodalus as \"a dove.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's just that Thea took decisive action. Hildegrin was flustered, so the\nwoman took the pistol from the big, bear-like man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fight between Vodalus and the volunteers is delightfully confused,\nmore like a real fight than most in fiction.\n\np16. He stumbled, as I have said. In that instant, I believe my whole\nlife teetered in the scales with his.\n\nIndeed it did; if the volunteers had prevailed and found him there\nwith Vodalus, they'd surely have taken him for the Vodalarius he would\nshortly claim to be, and kill him on the spot. But Severian is talking\nabout the change in his life that takes place because of the incidents\nthat follow, about how his accepting Vodalus's service led him to\n\"free\" Thecla and, ultimately, to the throne." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev admired Vodalus for his bravado, for disdaining the pistol, and for\nstanding alone against three armed men. \"Yet something touched me. Perhaps\nit was Vodalus's willingness to die to protect her that made the woman seem\nprecious to me; certainly it was that willingness that kindled my admiration\nfor him.\" But when Sev was put to the test, he wasn't willing to die to\nprotect *his* beloved, Thea's sister, Thecla. He even helped torture her.\n\nOne other thing I hadn't noticed for all my reading: Sev had it in for\nDrotte. Vodalus had fallen and was defending himself with his cane-sword. \"I\nremember thinking what a fine thing it would have been to have had such a\nsword on the day Drotte became captain of apprentices, and then likening\nVodalus to myself.\" Apparently, Drotte had done to Sev what Sev would later\ndo to Eata when Sev became captain -- establish a pecking order by brute\nforce. But I digress.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060906071021.95904.qmail@web54208.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "nastler", "address": "nastler at yahoo.dk" }, "date": "2006-09-06T07:10:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6d17e$8e41cfc0$fd3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One other thing I hadn't noticed for all my reading:\nSev had it in for\nDrotte. Vodalus had fallen and was defending himself\nwith his cane-sword. \"I\nremember thinking what a fine thing it would have\nbeen to have had such a\nsword on the day Drotte became captain of\napprentices, and then likening\nVodalus to myself.\" Apparently, Drotte had done to\nSev what Sev would later\ndo to Eata when Sev became captain -- establish a\npecking order by brute\nforce. But I digress." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I noticed this on the re-read too, the four\napprentices are Severian, his \"friend\" Roche, their\n\"captain\" Drotte, and the \"boy\" Eata.\n\nAlso in this chapter the first (but not last)\n\"tableau\" consisting of a \"beast\" man, an \"armed\" man,\nand a woman.\n\nnastler" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002601c6d184$16c475a0$fd3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-09-06T07:14:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close reading: Torturer chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<20060906071021.95904.qmail@web54208.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l quoted and wrote:\nSev was outside trying to unclog a frozen drain pipe the day he found\nTriskele. The dog ran away a week later, and Sev met Valeria. There was\nsnow\non the ground that day. It was winter when Sev had the dog. There is no\nway\nthat Sev went swimming that week, and there is no indication in IGJ that\nit\nwas winter when Silkhorn saw the dog." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... so ... IGJ can't be reconciled with SotT at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I can't go that far. Silkhorn's astral trips to Severian's era don't\nalways dovetail, as Andrew Bollen has been insisting for some time. Jahlee\nwas certainly cavorting naked in Nessus on the occasion in question, so it\nwasn't winter. All I was trying to do is show that the two instances of the\nguard being absent from the necropolis gate were not the same occasion.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060906072254.51466.qmail@web54211.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "nastler", "address": "nastler at yahoo.dk" }, "date": "2006-09-06T07:22:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<44FC0DDF.9090405@charter.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- JWillard skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"and what power of Erebus's gives you the right to\ncome here and do \nsomething like this?\" Something interesting I found\nin the W2 awhile \nago: According to some sources, Charon is the son\nof Erebus. Is Erebus \nsomehow Severian's great-grandfather? Is this line\na joke: Severian \nbeing the \"power of Erebus\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This line is spoken by the leader of the volunteers to\nVodalus. Voldalus' connection to the hidden powers is\nmade clear(er) later in the book(s).\n\nOh, and chapter one gives us our first glimpse of\n\"green moonlight\". Something I missed totally but\npresumably caused more careful first-time readers to\ngo, \"eh?\".\n\nnastler" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-06T12:48:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<20060906072254.51466.qmail@web54211.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Plaudits to JWillard for starting this thread. It appears that attacking \nBotNS chapter by chapter may expose a lot of things previously hidden in the \ncracks. For example,\n\nRoy says: (snip)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there is a mistake in NEW SUN involving this exchange. Vodalus definitely \ngave the pistol to >Hildegrin. But later, Sev recalls the scene and has \nVodalus giving it to Thea. The mistake is >repeated in the appendix to \nCITADEL, so the mistake is probably Wolfe's. There is another >mistake on \nthe second page, pointed out years ago by someone else (can't remember \nwho), >concerning whether it was Roche or Drotte who said the approaching \nvolunteers were carrying >pikes. That mistake may or may not be Sev's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't mention these two mistakes as I thought it was accepted Urth dogma \nthat they were Sev's mistakes not Wolfe's, and that they are purposeful in \nestablishing, within the first pages, Severian as an unreliable narrator. \nSince Wolfe is \"translating\" Severian's words I can't see a repeat of a \nmistake in an appendix as proof positive of auctorial error. If anything it \nseems like the appendix mistake would be Wolfe's way of calling extra \nattention to a Sev error.\n\nI think it is recognition of this unreliabiity which allows us to spot other \nmistakes, like the east/west switch that allows us to firmly establish this \nis the South American continent. Allows us to spot other Sev mistakes such \nas confusing wife/husband with sister/brother, old man with old woman, not \nnoticing the identicality of weapons, characters etc.; mistakes which really \nimpact the story. But I guess it isn't dogma afterall.\n\nRoy posted:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev admired Vodalus for his bravado, for disdaining the pistol, and for \nstanding alone against three >armed men. \"Yet something touched me. Perhaps \nit was Vodalus's willingness to die to protect >her that made the woman \nseem precious to me; certainly it was that willingness that kindled my \nadmiration for him.\" But when Sev was put to the test, he wasn't willing \nto die to\nprotect *his* beloved, Thea's sister, Thecla. He even helped torture her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This admiration of the hereditary elite, despite their obvious flaws, is a \ncontinuing theme. Elsewhere Wolfe notes that the exultants are braver than \ncommon folk and much more prone to extreme violence when needed. In Urth, \nThecla is praised for being willing to defend, with her life, someone \ndependent on her. Well, we know Wolfe is no Marxist, ;-).\n\nRoy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apparently, Drotte had done to Sev what Sev would later do to Eata when Sev \nbecame captain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, seems like standard procedure; perhaps Drotte would have done it first \nto Roche, to establish him as his \"second\". And the morning after Severian \nis elevated to journeyman, we see the new captain of apprentices:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(the boy Eata, not quite so small now, with a puffed lip and the gleam of \ntriumph in his eye)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<72BC5B42-9BBD-4F07-AA3F-B5B766087461@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-06T13:20:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wiki", "in_reply_to": "<44FDEED6.4000809@joncapps.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 5, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Jon Capps wrote:\nI have a hosting account that has not reached its domain limit, so \nI can\nsetup a wiki for the list if people want it. But this month is\n*extraordinarily* tight for me, so I cannot afford to purchase the\ndomain name.\n\nSo, if the list wants it, and can decide on a domain name, and \nsomeone's\nwilling to donate the $10 or so to get it (or to register the domain\nname oneself), I'll volunteer to host/admin the Urthwiki.\n\nOr, if it is decided that the wiki should be under the urth.net \ndomain,\nI might be able to work with Ranjit on getting something set up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A name that occurred to me last week:\n\nurthandskai.com\n\n(or .net or .org; they're all available. Org domains are difficult \nto transfer, though.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609060805w3a4a1899sfd6f9ca1ada4e77d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-06T15:05:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6d17e$8e41cfc0$fd3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/5/06, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nVodalus had fallen and was defending himself with his cane-sword." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Occurs to me: are Vodalus and the Doctor the only people\nin the Book with cane-swords? And does this imply a\nconnection I'm not seeing?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44FF208F.70504@charter.net>", "from": { "name": "JWillard", "address": "aldenweer at charter.net" }, "date": "2006-09-06T19:25:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370609060805w3a4a1899sfd6f9ca1ada4e77d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow! I'm thrilled with the response this has received.\n\nnastler says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would you be\nprepared to gather all the comments and edit into a\ncoherant list of observations for each chapter?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I think this would be rewarding, though I don't know the best way \nto do it.\n\nb sharp writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The tone JWillard \nsets with his first chapter observations is pretty high on the esoteric scale\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry - I tend towards the esoteric. But that's also why I thought it \nwould be good to get different people focused on the same content, so \nthat different things come into focus.\n\nGreat observation on the amschaspand. Perhaps it's also a hint of \noutside intervention of some kind: Severian must meet Vodalus as part \nof the narrative that's been assigned to him.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The gate is \"the symbol of my exile.\" Why \"the\" rather than \"a\"\nsymbol, I wonder?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I'm just being extra thick, but I've never understood why Severian \nmakes this comment, period. Why does he land on this gate as the symbol \nof his exile? He seems to mean it in a way focused on this particular \npoint in time. Is it because he has just realized what he is, having \njust come back to life?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, there's an interesting phrase at the bottom of 14/top of 15.\nVodalus tells Hildegrin (as yet unnamed) to take his pistol, then\ntells the volunteers \"Guard yourselves!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I was struck by the fact that Hildegrin commands Vodalus, as well. \nBut Thea's the dove.\n\nAnother line I meant to comment on, pg. 11 of Shadow/Claw: \"I dashed \nalong a path that was (or at least then seemed) completely \nunfamiliar...\" Like I said, words like 'perhaps' and 'seem' are \ntreacherous coming from Severian.\n\nOne thing I feel more strongly is that Severian's 'allegiance' to \nVodalus is an affectation. Well, that will have to wait. Work calls." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000101c6d1ff$a14be890$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-09-06T21:58:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<44FF208F.70504@charter.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\nBut when\nhe deliberately evokes Frankenstein, I'm forcefully reminded of the\nmost chilling line in Shelley's book: \"You are my creator, but I am\nyour master. Obey!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's definitely an air of that about the relationship of Talos and\nBaldanders, isn't there? Who could imagine Baldanders creating Dr\nTalos's wonderful play, and yet Baldanders created Dr Talos. In\nFrankenstein, a recurring theme is that of 'who is victim, who is\nvictor?' - monster and maker take turns pursuing each other for most of\nthe book, as far as I can recall.\n\nAs for chilling lines, personally speaking, the monster's promise \"I\nwill be with you on your wedding night!\" is the most unsettling for me.\nThere's a whole world of horror there, both overt and psychological.\nBrrr!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609061847u33d398ecy97bd96552f5e23d6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-07T01:47:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<000101c6d1ff$a14be890$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/6/06, Tony Ellis wrote:\nThere's definitely an air of that about the relationship of Talos and\nBaldanders, isn't there? Who could imagine Baldanders creating Dr\nTalos's wonderful play, and yet Baldanders created Dr Talos. In\nFrankenstein, a recurring theme is that of 'who is victim, who is\nvictor?' - monster and maker take turns pursuing each other for most\nof the book, as far as I can recall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A little over half, I think, though it's been a while.\n\nOdd thought, though ... given that Frankenstein's given\nname is \"Victor,\" but he is in the end the victim..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609071856n34e73adfw57e4fd492f8ec9d0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-08T01:56:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wiki", "in_reply_to": "<72BC5B42-9BBD-4F07-AA3F-B5B766087461@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not holding it up as THE MODEL, but A model of a\nsingle subject Wiki, which might be worth looking at,\nis \"This Might Be a Wiki\" (http://tmbw.net), the wiki\nfor fans of the band They Might Be Giants. It's a pretty\nnicely organized kind of fansite." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9c6b022b0609071906t199c3400w60ad00877b61bda@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Ranjit Bhatnagar", "address": "ranjit at moonmilk.com" }, "date": "2006-09-08T02:06:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wiki", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370609071856n34e73adfw57e4fd492f8ec9d0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not going to involve myself in the administration or policy of the\nwolfewiki, but if the interest is there and we're ready, I can provide\nthe domain name (wiki.urth.net or some such), and-- unless someone\nwith more experience would rather host the actual wiki software, I can\nset that up too.\n\n- ranjit" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060908024647.69506.qmail@web31915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch", "address": "isobelwren at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-09-08T02:46:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370609051157t661675c0ib873654ed9fe581c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: Actually, I'm pretty sure that Severian is Captain of Apprentices\nfor only one year; if I'm right, we'll come to the appropriate reference\nas we go through the book. And he has very little to \"master\" as\ncaptain -- he finds his work that year very light.\n\n \n \n \n I can't help but wonder why Severian was called in to assist with the Revolutionary given his pre-existing relationship with Thecla, which even were it not intimate was certainly close enough to create a clear conflict of interest in the client/torturer relationship. Which surely the masters of the guild would have known. So, was somebody paid off? Or did one of Severian's masters have a hidden reason for wanting to tempt Severian to do something that would get him kicked out of the guild?\n \n \n\n\nSarah Dorrance-Minch\n(in SCA, THL Isobel Wren, called \"Midori\")\n\nMother to Sophie (10/28/02) and Liesl (5/17/04); \nmilitant lactivist cult member\n\nIn a dark time, the eye begins to see" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001601c6d313$b6875680$1b3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-09-08T06:54:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "<20060908024647.69506.qmail@web31915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch wrote:\n I can't help but wonder why Severian was called in to assist with the\nRevolutionary given his pre-existing relationship with Thecla, which even\nwere it not intimate was certainly close enough to create a clear conflict\nof interest in the client/torturer relationship. Which surely the masters of\nthe guild would have known. So, was somebody paid off? Or did one of\nSeverian's masters have a hidden reason for wanting to tempt Severian to do\nsomething that would get him kicked out of the guild?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian was certainly intimate with Thecla. Perhaps the answers to your\nquestions lie in the answer to another question: Who gave the order for her\nto be tortured? Not merely tortured, but tortured in a manner that would\nresult in her slow but sure death.\n\nThe Matachin Tower was the autarch's private dungeon, not the city jail.\nMost people in Nessus didn't even know it existed. Thecla's death there\nserved no useful purpose. She was not even being used as part of a\npublic-relations ploy to deter sedition. The Old Autarch professed ignorance\nof her plight until after she was dead, but also endorsed the action of the\n\"certain officers\" who had caused her to be arrested in secret.\n\nThea had already fled the House Absolute to be with Vodalus before Thecla\nwas arrested. Thecla was imprisoned for a year before her death. Alive, she\npossessed at least as much value to the autarch as she did as a ceremonial\nconcubine. Dead, she lost all value to the autarch and risked the\npossibility that her influential exultant family up north would turn openly\nagainst him.\n\nEven if those \"officers\" decided that holding her prisoner while\nnegotiations with her family or Vodalus went on behind the scenes was a\nfruitless endeavor, they could better have left their options open by\nletting her sit in prison indefinitely. They could even have had her\nexecuted and be done with it. But they didn't. *Someone* ordered her\ntortured first. The torture wasn't even for the purpose of extracting\ninformation or compelling cooperation. As far as Thecla was concerned, the\ntorture was purely vindictive and would result in her death, even if\nSeverian hadn't shortened the ordeal by giving her a knife.\n\nThis all strikes me as rather bold decision for \"certain officers\" to make\nbehind the autarch's back, particularly given that Thecla was one of the\ntwenty-or-so favored concubines in the autarch's inner circle. That the\norder for her torture coincided with Severian's elevation to journeyman can\nhave been no accident. Some power-behind-the-throne was at work here.\nThecla's death did nothing to further the welfare of the Commonwealth or the\nautarch. Her death was the goad needed to push Severian out of the insulated\nnest of the guild and put him on the path to the Phoenix Throne. And the\nthrone was just a necessary stepping stone to Yesod and a New Sun.\n\nThose time walkers Severian mentioned near the end of CITADEL who intervened\nin the life of the \"first Severian\" were still orchestrating events in his\nown life. In the end, Thecla's blood is on their hands.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060909223526.97241.qmail@web34810.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Robin Hankin", "address": "rphankin at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-09-09T22:35:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What a wonderful idea. I've been on this list for some time, but have never contributed. Hi all.\n\nOne of the things I noticed in this rereading is that there are two things in the chapter that Severian professes admiration for. The first is Drotte and his quick -thinking lie. This is the first indication, I think, that Severian prone to deceit himself and is thus unrelaible as a narrator.\n\n The other thing Severain admires is Vodalus' bravado in handing over the pistol to Thea (or Hildegrin) and his willingness to risk their defense armed only with his sword. Given that Vodalus is a self-serving S.O.B. (and the false coin that he gives Sevarian is further proof of his falseness) I'm guessing that Vodalus did not think himself in real danger from the watchmen- he certainly would not deliberately sacrifice himself for and of his followers. So his admiration here is also for something false.\n\nThat got me thinking about Sevarian rushing to the aid of Vodalus when he stumbled in the fight. Now I wonder if that Vodalus really stumbled. He might have come to his aid solely out of admiration for Vodalus, and threw in the prospect of real danger to Vodalus in order to magnify the importance of his actions. Perhaps Vodalus was never in any real danger at all.\n\nRobin P. Hankin \n \t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060921231720.98236.qmail@web54407.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-09-21T23:17:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wiki", "in_reply_to": "<9c6b022b0609071906t199c3400w60ad00877b61bda@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As an organizational comment - isn't what you are looking to create something like a Scofield's Bible?\n\nhttp://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/ScofieldReferenceNotes/srn.cgi?book=mt&chapter=003\n\nAssuming the wiki would be more structured than \"Chapter 1: An endless series of comments\", etc, you almost need a chapter and verse breakdown of the book for cross-referential purposes. And you also need editors who will condense comments into appropriate lengths for insertion into the main body of the wiki, and link out to longer essays that touch on a verse but for whatever reason (length, theme, etc) don't belong in the main body? I'm imagining here someone re-reading the BotNS and looking at the wiki simultaneously, getting play by play, with links to appropriate other places in the wiki. Then at the end of the chapter or book or tetralogy are essays dealing with themes and all that sort of thing, which don't really have a place in the \"flow\" of reading the book.\n\nSo basically you need a few people to agree on a structure and then impose it rigorously; otherwise the wiki will be like the list but with more hyperlinks. Which wouldn't be terrible but the other would be more fun.\n\nSorry to blither so long but the wiki iss a pretty exciting idea and it got me thinking.\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Ranjit Bhatnagar \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, September 7, 2006 9:06:34 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Wiki\n\nI'm not going to involve myself in the administration or policy of the\nwolfewiki, but if the interest is there and we're ready, I can provide\nthe domain name (wiki.urth.net or some such), and-- unless someone\nwith more experience would rather host the actual wiki software, I can\nset that up too.\n\n- ranjit" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-23T04:00:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wiki", "in_reply_to": "<20060921231720.98236.qmail@web54407.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 21, 2006, at 6:17 PM, Nathan Spears wrote:\n\nAssuming the wiki would be more structured than \"Chapter 1: An \nendless series of comments\", etc, you almost need a chapter and \nverse breakdown of the book for cross-referential purposes. And \nyou also need editors who will condense comments into appropriate \nlengths for insertion into the main body of the wiki, and link out \nto longer essays that touch on a verse but for whatever reason \n(length, theme, etc) don't belong in the main body? I'm imagining \nhere someone re-reading the BotNS and looking at the wiki \nsimultaneously, getting play by play, with links to appropriate \nother places in the wiki. Then at the end of the chapter or book \nor tetralogy are essays dealing with themes and all that sort of \nthing, which don't really have a place in the \"flow\" of reading the \nbook.\n\nSo basically you need a few people to agree on a structure and then \nimpose it rigorously; otherwise the wiki will be like the list but \nwith more hyperlinks. Which wouldn't be terrible but the other \nwould be more fun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maintaining this kind of structure with an off-the-shelf wiki might \nbe difficult. Are there any Ruby on Rails developers on the list who \nwould like to collaborate on a custom solution?\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }