{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4714", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4714, "subject": "I Claudius", "messages": 11, "voices": 6, "first": "2006-09-07T00:19:38+00:00", "last": "2006-09-08T23:10:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000a01c6d213$4eda51a0$a98bd8cf@rw9s6no3t0dhzd>", "from": { "name": "Russell Wodell", "address": "wrustle at telus.net" }, "date": "2006-09-07T00:19:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) I Claudius", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Graves' Claudius novels seem an obvious inspiration for BOTNS. \n\nBut I wonder if there isn't an intervening source in a Graves rip-off: A.E. van Vogt's fix-up Empire of the Sun (1957). I'm relying on childhood memories here (has anyone read this recently?) but I remember it as chock-full of the surreal pulp imagery that Wolfe loves to rationalize, in this case people fighting with swords and ray-guns in a medieval-seeming setting that included spaceships. The last sentence of Chapter One of Shadow particularly struck me as reminiscent of the van Vogt (\"It was in this fashion that I began the long journey by which I have backed into the throne\") which recapitulates (againk, as I recall...) the basic Claudius plot of the least likely man becoming Emperor.\n\nIn much the same way, the opening sentence of Shadow (\"It is possible I aleady had some presentiment of my future\") strongly calls to mind both Proust and Dickens, two of Wolfe's culture heroes. Particularly the Dickens of David Copperfield: \"Whether I shall turn out to be the hero of my own life, or whether that station will be held by anybody else, these pages must show.\" How true of Severian!\n\nRussell Wodell" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-09-07T07:49:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) I Claudius", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c6d213$4eda51a0$a98bd8cf@rw9s6no3t0dhzd>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Russell Wodell writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Graves' Claudius novels seem an obvious inspiration for BOTNS. \n\nBut I wonder if there isn't an intervening source in a Graves rip-off: A.E. van Vogt's fix-up Empire of the Sun (1957)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nEMPIRE OF THE ATOM. Gorgeous tripe from AEVV, but having read it recently \nI doubt there's a close link: the style is all wrong, and VV is really \nwriting about the pains of being a superhuman/subhuman mutant." } ] }, { "message_id": "<450030F3.1070200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-07T14:47:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Van Vogt. (Was: Re: I Claudius)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andy Robertson skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Russell Wodell writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Graves' Claudius novels seem an obvious inspiration for BOTNS. \n\nBut I wonder if there isn't an intervening source in a Graves rip-off: A.E. van Vogt's fix-up Empire of the Sun (1957)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nEMPIRE OF THE ATOM. Gorgeous tripe from AEVV, but having read it recently \nI doubt there's a close link: the style is all wrong, and VV is really \nwriting about the pains of being a superhuman/subhuman mutant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read Van Vogt's _The Book of Ptath_ a few years back, and it struck me \nas very similar to BotNS, both in it's mixture of far future sf and \nmythical elements and in it's voice (of course, Van Vogt isn't as good a \nwriter as Wolfe, but I think he's better than his reputation and better \nthan many of his more famous contemporaries). I haven't read anything \nelse by Van Vogt, so I don't know how similar _Ptath_ is to his other \nworks, but I felt that Wolfe seems to echo many of the concepts in this \nbook, and since it almost was a dying earth it really felt like a \npotential source for inspiration for Wolfe. (And even if _Ptath_ isn't \nan inspiration it would seem likely that Wolfe read a lot of Van Vogt \nwhen he was young, since Van Vogt was a huge name back then.)\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-09-07T18:03:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Van Vogt. (Was: Re: I Claudius)", "in_reply_to": "<450030F3.1070200@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jesper Svedberg writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andy Robertson skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I read Van Vogt's _The Book of Ptath_ a few years back, and it struck me \nas very similar to BotNS, both in it's mixture of far future sf and \nmythical elements and in it's voice (of course, Van Vogt isn't as good a \nwriter as Wolfe, but I think he's better than his reputation and better \nthan many of his more famous contemporaries). I haven't read anything \nelse by Van Vogt, so I don't know how similar _Ptath_ is to his other \nworks, but I felt that Wolfe seems to echo many of the concepts in this \nbook, and since it almost was a dying earth it really felt like a \npotential source for inspiration for Wolfe. (And even if _Ptath_ isn't \nan inspiration it would seem likely that Wolfe read a lot of Van Vogt \nwhen he was young, since Van Vogt was a huge name back then.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI'd be astonished if Wolfe had not read Van Vogt. I cannot say if any of \nVV's work was an inspiration to Wolfe, but I think that merely setting it in \nthe distant future is not enough. \n\nTBOTNS is a \"Dying Earth\" story - a story set in a future in which the Sun \n(and therefore creation itself) has become senile, and reality frays. \n\nThis theme descends (like all SF does, I believe) from ancient Indo-European \nreligious and cultural forms, in this case the idea that the Universe is \ncyclically renewed through flood and flame. \n\nVV, as far as I know, never wrote in this vein. In fact VV was really \nwriting, and wrote again and again (to the point of wearying at least this \nreader), about quite another ancient Indo-European theme - the idea that a \nman can effectively become a god. \n\n\nhartshorn \n\n \n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<45006B53.7020104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-07T18:56:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Van Vogt. (Was: Re: I Claudius)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andy Robertson skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd be astonished if Wolfe had not read Van Vogt. I cannot say if any of \nVV's work was an inspiration to Wolfe, but I think that merely setting it in \nthe distant future is not enough. \n\nTBOTNS is a \"Dying Earth\" story - a story set in a future in which the Sun \n(and therefore creation itself) has become senile, and reality frays. \n\nThis theme descends (like all SF does, I believe) from ancient Indo-European \nreligious and cultural forms, in this case the idea that the Universe is \ncyclically renewed through flood and flame. \n\nVV, as far as I know, never wrote in this vein. In fact VV was really \nwriting, and wrote again and again (to the point of wearying at least this \nreader), about quite another ancient Indo-European theme - the idea that a \nman can effectively become a god. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_The Book of Ptath_ is set in a far future earth (it has also been \npublished under the title _Two Hundred Million A.D._) where civilization \nhas regressed , much like it has done in Vance's Dying Earth and Wolfe's \nUrth. It isn't an obvious Dying Earth setting like these two (The Sun is \nfor instance not in danger of going out IIRC), but it does share a \nnumber of features and the general feeling of the world isn't a million \nmiles away. (Some further research shows that _The Encyclopedia of \nFantasy_ actually calls it an early example of a Dying Earth.)\n\nI do think though that theme of godhood that was there on _Ptath_ (and \nthat you say is common to most work of Van Vogt's) is something that \nWolfe grapples with in BotNS. Severian isn't really a godlike figure, \nbut his story does echo that of _the Book of Ptath_ and many similar \nstories of mythological origin.\n\nI'm not saying it's an obvious source for inspiration, but I think it \ndoes deserve a closer look before it's discarded.\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-09-07T22:18:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Van Vogt. (Was: Re: I Claudius)", "in_reply_to": "<45006B53.7020104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jesper Svedberg writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do think though that theme of godhood that was there on _Ptath_ (and \nthat you say is common to most work of Van Vogt's) is something that \nWolfe grapples with in BotNS. Severian isn't really a godlike figure, \nbut his story does echo that of _the Book of Ptath_ and many similar \nstories of mythological origin. \n\nI'm not saying it's an obvious source for inspiration, but I think it \ndoes deserve a closer look before it's discarded. \n\n\n // Jesper" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIt certainly is worth looking at. ((My pronouncements have been \nunjustifiably gnomic and absolute. You must excuse me - I'm terribly \nbusy.)) But I think the difference lies in the fact that the \"godhood\" in \nTBOTNS is rooted in Judaeo-Christian ideas of submission to an omnipotent \nIncreate and His judgement. This idea of God is not an Indo-European \nconcept at all and is really quite different from the godhood in PTATH or \nelsewhere in VV. \n\nMy 2p, in haste. I'd be interested to know if Wolfe has spoken about any \ndebt to VV. \n\n\nhartshorn \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<45009F83.5080805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-07T22:38:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Van Vogt. (Was: Re: I Claudius)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andy Robertson skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It certainly is worth looking at. ((My pronouncements have been \nunjustifiably gnomic and absolute. You must excuse me - I'm terribly \nbusy.)) But I think the difference lies in the fact that the \"godhood\" in \nTBOTNS is rooted in Judaeo-Christian ideas of submission to an omnipotent \nIncreate and His judgement. This idea of God is not an Indo-European \nconcept at all and is really quite different from the godhood in PTATH or \nelsewhere in VV. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, right. I'm just suggesting that Wolfe might be reworking a Van \nVogtian (or similar) story of dawning Godhood in a Judaeo-Christian \ncontext. I other words: he's asking the question \"What would the type of \nhero found in a Campbellian monomyth or a story by Van Vogt be like if \nthe actual metaphysics of the world were based on christianity?\"\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609071853j7c2c89f5i6e0f5e8b0628c72f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-08T01:53:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Van Vogt. (Was: Re: I Claudius)", "in_reply_to": "<450030F3.1070200@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/7/06, Jesper Svedberg wrote:\n(of course, Van Vogt isn't as good a\nwriter as Wolfe, but I think he's better than his reputation and better\nthan many of his more famous contemporaries)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He was a half-good writer. On the level of sentences, his writing\nwas probably better than Asimov's, maybe even Heinlein's, but\nnot up to Simak's or Merrill's. But his plotting was atrocious, and\nhis characters ... wellllll, they're about as deep and well-rounded\nas Clarke's, but (unlike Clarke) he depended on character to propel\nhis story, which only adds to the jerryrigged plotting." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<45010072.4030806@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-09-08T05:32:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: Van Vogt. (Was: Re: I Claudius)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andy Robertson wrote:\nTBOTNS is a \"Dying Earth\" story - a story set in a future in which the Sun \n(and therefore creation itself) has become senile, and reality frays. \n\nThis theme descends (like all SF does, I believe) from ancient Indo-European \nreligious and cultural forms, in this case the idea that the Universe is \ncyclically renewed through flood and flame. \n\nVV, as far as I know, never wrote in this vein. In fact VV was really \nwriting, and wrote again and again (to the point of wearying at least this \nreader), about quite another ancient Indo-European theme - the idea that a \nman can effectively become a god. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "VV's novel, _THE UNIVERSE MAKER_, combines the two themes (as you can \nprobably guess from the title), as well as the Wolfean theme of an \nemergent, higher ethical order emerging from an indefinite cycle of \nrecapitulation and attempting to control it.\n\nJeff" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2006-09-08T22:13:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Van Vogt.", "in_reply_to": "<45010072.4030806@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAndy Robertson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "TBOTNS is a \"Dying Earth\" story - a story set in a future in which the Sun\n(and therefore creation itself) has become senile, and reality frays.\n\nVV, as far as I know, never wrote in this vein. In fact VV was really\nwriting, and wrote again and again (to the point of wearying at least this\nreader), about quite another ancient Indo-European theme - the idea that a\nman can effectively become a god." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've previously commented that I think there are images/ideas from Van\nVogt, but in Short Sun, notably Venus/Earth, transmigration one way/rocket\nthe other in _Null_A_. They are immediately subverted, but the\ndescriptions of the trees of Venus really struck me when I was\nrereading it recently.\n\nI find reading Van Vogt a guilty pleasure (the earlier the better). If\nanyone hasn't read him, I would suggest the short stories. I like the\nfixup _The War against the Rull_ -- you get \"the old, perennial thrill...a\nfeeling of exaltation in contemplating this universe of fabulous planets\nand of wondrous stars...\", as well as \"Dark forest of Mira, he thought\nshakily. Alive with the young of the lymph beast...\" ;) [a better model\nfor _that_ movie].\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-09-08T23:10:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Van Vogt.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Duffy writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find reading Van Vogt a guilty pleasure (the earlier the better). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n\nHe wrote a handful of archetypically beautiful stories \n\n\nThe Enchanted Village\nDormant\nThe Monster\nThe Sound \n\n\nGUilty? No. You are perceiving (ragged) beauty. " } ] } ] }