Subject: (urth) I Claudius

From: Russell Wodell <wrustle at telus.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:19:38 +0000

Graves' Claudius novels seem an obvious inspiration for BOTNS. 

But I wonder if there isn't an intervening source in a Graves rip-off: A.E. van Vogt's fix-up Empire of the Sun (1957). I'm relying on childhood memories here (has anyone read this recently?) but I remember it as chock-full of the surreal pulp imagery that Wolfe loves to rationalize, in this case people fighting with swords and ray-guns in a medieval-seeming setting that included spaceships. The last sentence of Chapter One of Shadow particularly struck me as reminiscent of the van Vogt ("It was in this fashion that I began the long journey by which I have backed into the throne") which recapitulates (againk, as I recall...) the basic Claudius plot of the least likely man becoming Emperor.

In much the same way, the opening sentence of Shadow ("It is possible I aleady had some presentiment of my future") strongly calls to mind both Proust and Dickens, two of Wolfe's culture heroes. Particularly the Dickens of David Copperfield:  "Whether I shall turn out to be the hero of my own life, or whether that station will be held by anybody else, these pages must show." How true of Severian!

Russell Wodell
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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 07:49:46 +0000

Russell Wodell writes: 

> But I wonder if there isn't an intervening source in a Graves rip-off: A.E. van Vogt's fix-up Empire of the Sun (1957).

EMPIRE OF THE ATOM.   Gorgeous tripe from AEVV, but having read it recently 
I doubt there's a close link: the style is all wrong, and VV is really 
writing about the pains of being a superhuman/subhuman mutant.

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From: Jesper Svedberg <jsvedberg at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 14:47:15 +0000

> writing about the pains of being a superhuman/subhuman mutant.

I read Van Vogt's _The Book of Ptath_ a few years back, and it struck me 
as very similar to BotNS, both in it's mixture of far future sf and 
mythical elements and in it's voice (of course, Van Vogt isn't as good a 
writer as Wolfe, but I think he's better than his reputation and better 
than many of his more famous contemporaries). I haven't read anything 
else by Van Vogt, so I don't know how similar _Ptath_ is to his other 
works, but I felt that Wolfe seems to echo many of the concepts in this 
book, and since it almost was a dying earth it really felt like a 
potential source for inspiration for Wolfe. (And even if _Ptath_ isn't 
an inspiration it would seem likely that Wolfe read a lot of Van Vogt 
when he was young, since Van Vogt was a huge name back then.)

   // Jesper

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 18:03:30 +0000

> when he was young, since Van Vogt was a huge name back then.)

I'd be astonished if Wolfe had not read Van Vogt.   I cannot say if any of 
VV's work was an inspiration to Wolfe, but I think that merely setting it in 
the distant future is not enough. 

TBOTNS is a "Dying Earth" story - a story set in a future in which the Sun 
(and therefore creation itself) has become senile, and reality frays. 

This theme descends (like all SF does, I believe) from ancient Indo-European 
religious and cultural forms, in this case the idea that the Universe is 
cyclically renewed through flood and flame. 

VV, as far as I know, never wrote in this vein.   In fact VV was really 
writing, and wrote again and again (to the point of wearying at least this 
reader),  about quite another ancient Indo-European theme - the idea that a 
man can effectively become a god. 

hartshorn 

http://www.thenightland.co.uk 

01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545

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From: Jesper Svedberg <jsvedberg at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 18:56:19 +0000

> man can effectively become a god. 

_The Book of Ptath_ is set in a far future earth (it has also been 
published under the title _Two Hundred Million A.D._) where civilization 
has regressed , much like it has done in Vance's Dying Earth and Wolfe's 
Urth. It isn't an obvious Dying Earth setting like these two (The Sun is 
for instance not in danger of going out IIRC), but it does share a 
number of features and the general feeling of the world isn't a million 
miles away. (Some further research shows that _The Encyclopedia of 
Fantasy_ actually calls it an early example of a Dying Earth.)

I do think though that theme of godhood that was there on _Ptath_ (and 
that you say is common to most work of Van Vogt's) is something that 
Wolfe grapples with in BotNS. Severian isn't really a godlike figure, 
but his story does echo that of _the Book of Ptath_ and many similar 
stories of mythological origin.

I'm not saying it's an obvious source for inspiration, but I think it 
does deserve a closer look before it's discarded.

   // Jesper

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 22:18:27 +0000

> does deserve a closer look before it's discarded. 

It certainly is worth looking at.   ((My pronouncements have been 
unjustifiably gnomic and absolute.  You must excuse me - I'm terribly 
busy.))  But I think the difference lies in the fact that the "godhood" in 
TBOTNS is rooted in Judaeo-Christian ideas of submission to an omnipotent 
Increate and His judgement.  This idea of God is not an Indo-European 
concept at all and is really quite different from the godhood in PTATH or 
elsewhere in VV. 

My 2p, in haste.  I'd be interested to know if Wolfe has spoken about any 
debt to VV. 

hartshorn

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From: Jesper Svedberg <jsvedberg at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 22:38:59 +0000

> concept at all and is really quite different from the godhood in PTATH or 

Well, right. I'm just suggesting that Wolfe might be reworking a Van 
Vogtian (or similar) story of dawning Godhood in a Judaeo-Christian 
context. I other words: he's asking the question "What would the type of 
hero found in a Campbellian monomyth or a story by Van Vogt be like if 
the actual metaphysics of the world were based on christianity?"

   // Jesper

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 01:53:16 +0000

On 9/7/06, Jesper Svedberg <jsvedberg at gmail.com> wrote:
> (of course, Van Vogt isn't as good a
> than many of his more famous contemporaries).

He was a half-good writer. On the level of sentences, his writing
was probably better than Asimov's, maybe even Heinlein's, but
not up to Simak's or Merrill's. But his plotting was atrocious, and
his characters ... wellllll, they're about as deep and well-rounded
as Clarke's, but (unlike Clarke) he depended on character to propel
his story, which only adds to the jerryrigged plotting.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com
I've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 05:32:34 +0000

> man can effectively become a god. 

VV's novel, _THE UNIVERSE MAKER_, combines the two themes (as you can 
probably guess from the title), as well as the Wolfean theme of an 
emergent, higher ethical order emerging from an indefinite cycle of 
recapitulation and attempting to control it.

Jeff

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From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:13:33 +0000

> > man can effectively become a god.

I've previously commented that I think there are images/ideas from Van
Vogt, but in Short Sun, notably Venus/Earth, transmigration one way/rocket
the other in _Null_A_.  They are immediately subverted, but the
descriptions of the trees of Venus really struck me when I was
rereading it recently.

I find reading Van Vogt a guilty pleasure (the earlier the better).  If
anyone hasn't read him, I would suggest the short stories.  I like the
fixup _The War against the Rull_ -- you get "the old, perennial thrill...a
feeling of exaltation in contemplating this universe of fabulous planets
and of wondrous stars...", as well as "Dark forest of Mira, he thought
shakily.  Alive with the young of the lymph beast..." ;) [a better model
for _that_ movie].

David Duffy.

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:10:46 +0000

David Duffy writes: 

> 
> I find reading Van Vogt a guilty pleasure (the earlier the better). 

He wrote a handful of archetypically beautiful stories 

The Enchanted Village
Dormant
The Monster
The Sound 

GUilty? No.  You are perceiving (ragged)  beauty.