{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4717", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4717, "subject": "A very interesting interview indeed", "messages": 7, "voices": 7, "first": "2006-09-07T19:36:38+00:00", "last": "2006-09-09T13:22:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-09-07T19:36:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A very interesting interview indeed", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was reading the recently-posted Larry McCaffery interview, in which \nthe mystery of 5HC is \"given away\" (http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/ \ninterviews/wolfe46interview.htm)\n\nThere's the following quotation in it too:\n\n\"The fact that you stand there and let someone hit you in the face \ndoesn't do anything to eliminate violence (it may even contribute to \nfurther violence) ?which is one of the underlying themes in The Book \nof the New Sun.\"\n\nThat seems a very explicit repudiation of one of the more memorable \npassages in a book that's generally considered to be a pretty huge \ninfluence on Wolfe's work generally and BotNS in particular.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-07T20:28:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A very interesting interview indeed", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 7, 2006, at 2:36 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nThere's the following quotation in it too:\n\n\"The fact that you stand there and let someone hit you in the face\ndoesn't do anything to eliminate violence (it may even contribute to\nfurther violence) ?which is one of the underlying themes in The Book\nof the New Sun.\"\n\nThat seems a very explicit repudiation of one of the more memorable\npassages in a book that's generally considered to be a pretty huge\ninfluence on Wolfe's work generally and BotNS in particular." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take this to be a reference to Matthew 5:39 (and parallel \npassages), the famous \"turn the other cheek\" instruction.\n\nWolfe's statement above could be seen as a repudiation of Mt 5:39, if \nyou assume that the scope of the instruction is universal, that it \napplies to all men at all times. I think this is a dangerous \nassumption to make about a passage in a document that was written for \na specific and narrow group of men. GW has shown in his work a deep \nconsideration for narrative context, and I think it unlikely that he \nwould give the New Testament documents any less thought.\n\nI've been reading Malina and Rohrbaugh's _Social-Science Commentary \non the Synoptics_ lately, in which they apply the sociological \nresearch of the Context Group to Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Valuable \nreading, though I don't find it wholly convincing. Here's a bit of \ntheir take on Matthew 5:39\n\n---\nWhat the scenes described in these antitheses offer is a way out of \nthe honor-shame impasse that requires taking satisfaction. . . . \n[They] all describe having one's entitlements infringed on in a \nhumiliating way: being struck on the right cheek by a backhand slap \nis an insult, as humiliating as being successfully sued in court or \nbeing forced to carry military gear for a mile. All such humiliating \nbehavior required defense of one's honor. The advice given is to put \nup with the dishonor and cede what one was entitled to! The key to \nimagining the scenarios here is to realize that all of them presume \nan audience. In the Mediterranean world no one fights in public \nwithout others intervening to break it up. . . . Should someone be \npublicly insulted, the bystanders are sure to intervene. The real \nquestion raised by the image here is whether an insulted person \nshould seek to defend his own honor or let another person defend \nhim. Allowing others to come to one's defense enables one to be \nreconciled later with the one who dishonored and not proceed to a \ndemand for satisfaction and feuding.\n---" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.3.4.2.20060907213058.05bb4c60@localhost>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-09-07T20:34:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A very interesting interview indeed", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 20:36 07/09/2006, Adam wrote:\n\"The fact that you stand there and let someone \nhit you in the face doesn't do anything to \neliminate violence (it may even contribute \nto further violence) ?which is one of the \nunderlying themes in The Book of the New Sun.\"\n\nThat seems a very explicit repudiation of one of \nthe more memorable passages in a book that's \ngenerally considered to be a pretty \nhuge influence on Wolfe's work generally and BotNS in particular." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mm, I picked up on that too. Perhaps a synthesis \nof that passage with the one about coming not in \npeace but with a sword. I guess that may be part \nof what he means when he says later in the \ninterview \"I am a practicing Catholic, although I \ndon't think that designation would give people \nmuch of an idea about what my beliefs are\"...\n\nMo" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4500FE63.50001@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-09-08T05:23:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] A very interesting interview indeed", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nI was reading the recently-posted Larry McCaffery interview, in which \nthe mystery of 5HC is \"given away\" (http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/ \ninterviews/wolfe46interview.htm)\n\nThere's the following quotation in it too:\n\n\"The fact that you stand there and let someone hit you in the face \ndoesn't do anything to eliminate violence (it may even contribute to \nfurther violence) ?which is one of the underlying themes in The Book \nof the New Sun.\"\n\nThat seems a very explicit repudiation of one of the more memorable \npassages in a book that's generally considered to be a pretty huge \ninfluence on Wolfe's work generally and BotNS in particular." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you mean the Bible? Particularly, \"turn the other cheek\"?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060908110438.CFC30DA824@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-09-08T11:04:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A very interesting interview indeed", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.3.4.2.20060907213058.05bb4c60@localhost>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 05:36:38 +1000 Adam Thornton \nwrote:\nI was reading the recently-posted Larry McCaffery interview, in \nwhich \nthe mystery of 5HC is \"given away\" (http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/ \ninterviews/wolfe46interview.htm)\n\nThere's the following quotation in it too:\n\n\"The fact that you stand there and let someone hit you in the face " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "doesn't do anything to eliminate violence (it may even contribute \nto \nfurther violence) ?which is one of the underlying themes in The \nBook \nof the New Sun.\"\n\nThat seems a very explicit repudiation of one of the more \nmemorable \npassages in a book that's generally considered to be a pretty huge " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "influence on Wolfe's work generally and BotNS in particular." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The most striking manifestation of this to me is Sev's behavior \nwhen he's arrested in UOTNS. He messes up bunch of soldiers, and \nthen he kills the prison governess almost immediately upon meeting \nher. If I were a Christian, I'd find those pretty disturbing events \nin Sev's \"ministry\". \n\nI can never make up my mind whether (a) Wolfe thinks Jesus was a \nwuss & that Sev is showing how a non-wuss handles this kind of \nsituation (b) it's another indication that the universe of New Sun \nisn't ours, in line with theories I've posted previously (c) Wolfe \nthinks the Bible got it wrong and that, in fact, Jesus went down \nfighting (d) some other damn thing." } ] }, { "message_id": "<88ED3927-91E6-4B05-AB7C-D8F7223F1B79@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Joel and Rachel Wilhelm", "address": "eleysium at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-08T23:47:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A very interesting interview indeed", "in_reply_to": "<20060908110438.CFC30DA824@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The central message of the Church is that man is saved by grace from \nGod - not due to moral perfection. Wolfe has deeply flawed characters \nwho nevertheless are used by the Divine - not unlike Biblical \ncharacters (David for example). I see no contradiction.\n\nJoel W." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 8, 2006, at 6:13 PM, urth-request at lists.urth.net wrote:\n\nThe most striking manifestation of this to me is Sev's behavior\nwhen he's arrested in UOTNS. He messes up bunch of soldiers, and\nthen he kills the prison governess almost immediately upon meeting\nher. If I were a Christian, I'd find those pretty disturbing events\nin Sev's \"ministry\".\n\nI can never make up my mind whether (a) Wolfe thinks Jesus was a\nwuss & that Sev is showing how a non-wuss handles this kind of\nsituation (b) it's another indication that the universe of New Sun\nisn't ours, in line with theories I've posted previously (c) Wolfe\nthinks the Bible got it wrong and that, in fact, Jesus went down\nfighting (d) some other damn thing." } ] }, { "message_id": "<200609090922.41575.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-09-09T13:22:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A very interesting interview indeed", "in_reply_to": "<20060908110438.CFC30DA824@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday 08 September 2006 07:04, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nOn Fri, 08 Sep 2006 05:36:38 +1000 Adam Thornton \n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was reading the recently-posted Larry McCaffery interview, in\nwhich\nthe mystery of 5HC is \"given away\" (http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/\ninterviews/wolfe46interview.htm)\n\nThere's the following quotation in it too:\n\n\"The fact that you stand there and let someone hit you in the face\n\n\ndoesn't do anything to eliminate violence (it may even contribute\nto\nfurther violence) ?which is one of the underlying themes in The\nBook\nof the New Sun.\"\n\nThat seems a very explicit repudiation of one of the more\nmemorable\npassages in a book that's generally considered to be a pretty huge\n\n\ninfluence on Wolfe's work generally and BotNS in particular." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The most striking manifestation of this to me is Sev's behavior\nwhen he's arrested in UOTNS. He messes up bunch of soldiers, and\nthen he kills the prison governess almost immediately upon meeting\nher. If I were a Christian, I'd find those pretty disturbing events\nin Sev's \"ministry\".\n\nI can never make up my mind whether (a) Wolfe thinks Jesus was a\nwuss & that Sev is showing how a non-wuss handles this kind of\nsituation (b) it's another indication that the universe of New Sun\nisn't ours, in line with theories I've posted previously (c) Wolfe\nthinks the Bible got it wrong and that, in fact, Jesus went down\nfighting (d) some other damn thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think seeing Sev as a direct parallel to Jesus is a mistake. Certainly, he \nis in some sense a Messiah figure but I think that's he's both more and less. \nMore, in that there are a great many other themes and issues being addressed \nthan solely a Messiah, and less in that Sev certainly isn't in any sense a \nperfect representative as Christ was supposed to be. If you're a Christian, \nyou're supposed to use Christ's actions as a model on which to base your own. \nIt's become a trite phrase but that's exactly what WWJD means. I don't think \nWolfe ever intended anyone to ask WWSD, so trying to draw critiques of \nChrist's actions from Sev's actions is, I think, missing the mark." } ] } ] }