{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/472", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 472, "subject": "Gene, David & other Cerberids, true, false and possible", "messages": 1, "voices": 1, "first": "1998-04-04T15:39:42+00:00", "last": "1998-04-04T15:39:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at coredcs.com" }, "date": "1998-04-04T15:39:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene, David & other Cerberids, true, false and possible", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The thought occurs to me, if the narrator's name is Jean, then what is\nhis brother's name, who is presumably also a clone. I think that it's\nreasonable to suppose the clones are numbered; indeed, the title should\nalert us to that. Then, the narrator is Jean-5? and his brother is\nJean 6? (I can't remember if the brother is younger or older)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First time in here. Just to say that my idea was always that the brother\nwas not a clone but rather a control in the experiment. But, who is\nNumber 1?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Including Rostrum's ingenious \"Jeannine =3D Jean 9\", but surely\nthe narrator is number 5 because he is the 5th head of \nCerberus, which is to say, of his family. As his father says,\nif he was counting clones the narrator would be Number\nFifty, not five." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is why Aunt Jeannine initially says \"That number's\neither far too low or too high.\" It's too low because there are\nmore like 50 clones, and it _seems_ too high to her\nbecause she doesn't know about David. But if you count\nher, the narrator, his \"father\", Mr Million and David you get\nfive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for who is Number One, I'm not sure that question applies,\nbut I suppose you could say it's the father, as he's the current\nmaster of the brood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There seems to be a lot of confusion about the Wolfe/Cerberus clan of\nSainte Croix and who represents which number and who is or who is not a\nclone.\n\nLet me venture my interpretation, Procustean and convoluted though it be.\n\nGene Wolfe #1 is the original patriarch, our narrator's great grandfather.\nHe is naturally born and it is his parents we see when Aunt Jeannine has\nthe sepia photograph fetched for Number Five . This ur-GW begins the\ncloning experiments, producing Gene Wolfe #2. Mr. Million is GW #1's\nunbound simulator and since the process used to produce him is fatal we may\nassume GW #1 has chosen suicide--although he is \"reincarnated\" in the\nrobot. Since GW2's clonal birth precedes Mr Million's mechanical birth,\nI've chosen to designate Mr Million GW #3.\n\nAunt Jeannine is _not_ a clone, but the biological daughter of GW #1. Or as\nDr Marsch explains, \"...the woman you call your aunt. She is in reality\ndaughter to an earlier--shall we say version'?--of yourself.\" Number Five's\nfather later refers to her as an experiment. Consequently, she gets no\nnumber.\n\nGW #2 produces the next generation of Cerberus, our narrator's \"father,\" a\nclone of a clone, who in the text is called Maitre. He is GW #4.\n\nMaitre clonally produces GW #5, our narrator. David, however, is GW #4's\nbiological son and Aunt Jeannine surmises Maitre has used one of her girls\nto produce him. (Maitre also later acknowledges him as his biological son).\n\nOr as the most pertinent quote puts it, with Maitre speaking to Number Five\nin the library, and all brackets mine: \"We seek self-knowledge. You [#5]\nare here because I [#4] did and do, and I am here because the individual\n[#2] behind me did --who was himself originated by the one [#1} whose mind\nis is simulated in Mr. Million [#3].\"\n\nWith me so far? Of course, I would be remiss if I did not mention that\nthere were many other GW variants produced, but all of these were either\nexperiments or throwaways and were in no way connected with the operations\nof running Maison du Chien, as GW #'s 1-5 are/were.\n\nThis leaves one last sibling to discuss: Number Five's sister. She is\nmentioned by Aunt Jeannine in Number Five's first encounter with her: \"Have\nyou a sister, Number Five?\" And: \"Your father had a sister--why shouldn't\nyou?\"\n\nI submit that Phaedria, Number Five's early love interest (and later his\nhousemate) is his sister, the biological daughter of Maitre.\n\nHere follows my reasoning: (1) We know Maitre has brokered children, so it\nis not unreasonable to assume he's sold a daughter. (2) Phaedria, when we\nfirst meet her, has a broken ankle, linking her with Aunt Jeannine, who is\nalso crippled; as Aunt Jeannine is to Maitre, Phaedria is to Number Five;\n(3) 'Phaedria' derives from Phaedra, a mythological figure who attempts\nincest with her stepson; (4) much to Number Five's surprise, Maitre allows\na large number of his girls to attend the play Number Five and Phaedra are\nin; perhaps sinisterly he hopes to see a liaison develop between Number\nFive and Phaedria, an even more perverse variation on his quest for\nself-knowledge. (Then again, isn't cloning a nonsexual version of incest?) \n\nHope this helps, rather than engenders confusion. FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS\nwas the first work of Gene Wolfe I ever read and it remains my favorite to\nthis day--nice to see finally some interest in it!\n\nRobert Borski (who hopes soon to return to his lurker status)" } ] } ] }