{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4720", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4720, "subject": "Close Reading: Torturer Chapter II: Severian", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2006-09-10T06:13:17+00:00", "last": "2006-09-11T20:34:35+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4503ACFD.9090803@charter.net>", "from": { "name": "JWillard", "address": "aldenweer at charter.net" }, "date": "2006-09-10T06:13:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter II: Severian", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paragraph #3: \"That first recollection is of piling pebbles in the Old \nYard.\" Casual comment, or something more? My mind traveled to Sev \nbeing overwhelmed by the Sand Garden (XIX), and his comment, \"\"I felt I \nbelonged there,\" I said. \"That I was to meet someone ... and that a \ncertain woman was there, nearby, but concealed from sight.\"\" Don't \nknow; probably nothing.\n\n#4: \"... they seldom had much stomach for expelling us from our lurking \nplaces in the cypress groves.\" Robert Graves talks about the cypress in \nThe White Goddess: \"Thus as the tree of Sunday, succeeding the alder of \nSaturday, it symbolized resurrection in the Orphic mysteries, the escape \nof the Sun-hero from Calypso's alder-girt island, and became attached to \nthe cult of the Celestial Hercules. Cypress is still the prime \nresurrection symbol in Mediterranean church-yards.\" Are all the \ntorturers being groomed as potential new suns? And how much of the \nHercules cult is explored in BotNS: Palaemon is a link to Hercules and \nthe White Goddess.\n\n#5: Does the layout of where the different social strata are buried help \nus anywhere else?\n\n#6: \"...observing how cruel the women were and how often they exceeded \nthe punishments he had decreed...\" Is Wolfe in agreement with Severian \nand Ymar, or is this misogynous comment specific to his characters?\n\n#8: What \"great northern clan\" does Eata believe he belongs to?\n\n#9: Crucial paragraph, but I have no new observations.\n\n#10: I'm stupid: Is the giant fox a lion? I puzzled over this \nparagraph. It seems so simple, but it nags at me. Then the line in #11 \nnags me more: \"The decades of a saros would not be long enough for me \nto write all they meant to the ragged apprentice boy I was.\" Is this a \npointer disguised as reminescence? Is there importance in the \nprocession/order of animals mentioned? (Lion (?), snake, hawk.) Is \nthere some astrological significance here?\n\n#11: \"The second ...\" Does the white fountain do more than resurrect? \nAny odd critters out there other than Hethor's?\n\n#14: Once again, torturers have a disturbing idea of fun, don't they?\n\n#20 and 27: Two comments specific to Eata: \"Eata guessed, I think - \nbefore they come too near to being men, boys often have an almost female \ninsight,\" and after Sev's drowning, \"I ... thought that some defect in \nmy own vision was multiplying Eata's eyes.\" Are we meant to think \nsomething about Eata?\n\n#25: Why a spoon? Why?\n\n#26: Is he in Thecla's cell? Mother's cell?\n\n#12, 21, 27: What is it with hair in this chapter?\n\nDialogue after #28: \"Someone in the crowd said, \"He shot right out of \nthe water!\"\" It's almost as if Severian *himself* is excalibur in this \nimage.\nSomeone who's read this recently: Why does the boatman (Charonus?) have \n\"tar-stained clothes\"? I'm sure it's something obvious.\n\"\"No, no,\" Roche told him, \"There are no women in our guild.\"\" This \nfact is given special emphasis in this chapter, bookended by the earlier \nreference to Ymar and Roche's response here. \n\nLast paragraph: \"Night atop the khan\" Last chapter we had one mention \nof Erebus; here one of Night." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8476d0320609100946y75cb626dh3bbcb51b7e7a93e7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Bruce Hayles", "address": "brucehayles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-10T16:46:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter II: Severian", "in_reply_to": "<4503ACFD.9090803@charter.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian adopts the fountain, ship volant, and rose as his devices. A couple\nof pages ago we were told that\n\"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are\ntheir creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.\"\nThe fountain is the New Sun, the ship the Tzadkiel's ship, and the rose new\nlife on Urth (I think someone has suggested that is love also, or instead).\nSeverian obsesses about two things\n\"The first was that at some not-distant time, time itself would stop ... The\nsecond was that there existed somewhere in a miraculous light... that\nengendered life in whatever objects it fell upon...\"\nWhy is Severian thinking these things? Obviously this foreshadows what will\nhappen later, but are we also being told something about the power of\nsymbols again--that Severian was shaped by the tomb that bore his face? If\nso, we were clearly misdirected earlier. The focus is put on Severian's\ntying himself to Vodalus when Severian talks about the coin Vodalus gave\nhim. We are told that symbols shape things, but can Vodalus really be\ncompared in magnitude to the ship volant, the fountain, and the rose? Yet\nSeverian directs our attention to Vodalus, not the ship volant, fountain,\nand rose. Does Severian see the connection between the symbols graven on his\ntomb and what he would later do? It certainly seems Wolfe is at least trying\nto tell us they are important, because he gives us the symbol speech. If all\nWolfe wanted us to do was think Vodalus in responsible part for the person\nSeverian became, is the symbol speech actually necessary? We all know enough\nPop Psychology that we could draw that rather shallow indirect connection.\nIt seems instead that Wolfe is giving us a rule, and that we can use that\nrule to derive the influence of the ship volant, the fountain, and the rose,\ndespite the fact that Severian does not emphasize them whatsoever. If this\nis so, Wolfe is an amazing teacher: he shows Severian instructing us on the\npower of symbols yet simultaneously being blind to them (making their power\nall the more evident)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/06, JWillard wrote:\n\nParagraph #3: \"That first recollection is of piling pebbles in the Old\nYard.\" Casual comment, or something more? My mind traveled to Sev\nbeing overwhelmed by the Sand Garden (XIX), and his comment, \"\"I felt I\nbelonged there,\" I said. \"That I was to meet someone ... and that a\ncertain woman was there, nearby, but concealed from sight.\"\" Don't\nknow; probably nothing.\n\n#4: \"... they seldom had much stomach for expelling us from our lurking\nplaces in the cypress groves.\" Robert Graves talks about the cypress in\nThe White Goddess: \"Thus as the tree of Sunday, succeeding the alder of\nSaturday, it symbolized resurrection in the Orphic mysteries, the escape\nof the Sun-hero from Calypso's alder-girt island, and became attached to\nthe cult of the Celestial Hercules. Cypress is still the prime\nresurrection symbol in Mediterranean church-yards.\" Are all the\ntorturers being groomed as potential new suns? And how much of the\nHercules cult is explored in BotNS: Palaemon is a link to Hercules and\nthe White Goddess.\n\n#5: Does the layout of where the different social strata are buried help\nus anywhere else?\n\n#6: \"...observing how cruel the women were and how often they exceeded\nthe punishments he had decreed...\" Is Wolfe in agreement with Severian\nand Ymar, or is this misogynous comment specific to his characters?\n\n#8: What \"great northern clan\" does Eata believe he belongs to?\n\n#9: Crucial paragraph, but I have no new observations.\n\n#10: I'm stupid: Is the giant fox a lion? I puzzled over this\nparagraph. It seems so simple, but it nags at me. Then the line in #11\nnags me more: \"The decades of a saros would not be long enough for me\nto write all they meant to the ragged apprentice boy I was.\" Is this a\npointer disguised as reminescence? Is there importance in the\nprocession/order of animals mentioned? (Lion (?), snake, hawk.) Is\nthere some astrological significance here?\n\n#11: \"The second ...\" Does the white fountain do more than resurrect?\nAny odd critters out there other than Hethor's?\n\n#14: Once again, torturers have a disturbing idea of fun, don't they?\n\n#20 and 27: Two comments specific to Eata: \"Eata guessed, I think -\nbefore they come too near to being men, boys often have an almost female\ninsight,\" and after Sev's drowning, \"I ... thought that some defect in\nmy own vision was multiplying Eata's eyes.\" Are we meant to think\nsomething about Eata?\n\n#25: Why a spoon? Why?\n\n#26: Is he in Thecla's cell? Mother's cell?\n\n#12, 21, 27: What is it with hair in this chapter?\n\nDialogue after #28: \"Someone in the crowd said, \"He shot right out of\nthe water!\"\" It's almost as if Severian *himself* is excalibur in this\nimage.\nSomeone who's read this recently: Why does the boatman (Charonus?) have\n\"tar-stained clothes\"? I'm sure it's something obvious.\n\"\"No, no,\" Roche told him, \"There are no women in our guild.\"\" This\nfact is given special emphasis in this chapter, bookended by the earlier\nreference to Ymar and Roche's response here.\n\nLast paragraph: \"Night atop the khan\" Last chapter we had one mention\nof Erebus; here one of Night.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c6d56d$9dfb9520$ba3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-09-11T06:43:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter II: Severian", "in_reply_to": "<8476d0320609100946y75cb626dh3bbcb51b7e7a93e7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bruce Hayles wrote:\nSeverian adopts the fountain, ship volant, and rose as his devices. A\ncouple\nof pages ago we were told that\n\"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we\nare\ntheir creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.\"\nThe fountain is the New Sun, the ship the Tzadkiel's ship, and the rose new\nlife on Urth (I think someone has suggested that is love also, or instead)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nThe rose, most directly, symbolizes the Claw. The Claw symbolizes the\n\"Eternal Principle\", all that is sacred and holy. (CITADEL, chapter XXXI)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Severian see the connection between the symbols graven on his\ntomb and what he would later do?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nI don't think so. It wasn't until he was pricked by the thorn of the wild\nrose on the beach late in CITADEL that he made the connection between the\nClaw he had surrendered at the Pelerine camp and the blood-tainted thorn he\npulled from his arm. He carried that thorn for ten years before Apheta\nfinally made him understand that it was/would become *the* Claw stolen by\nAgia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/06, JWillard wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Paragraph #3: \"That first recollection is of piling pebbles in the Old\nYard.\" Casual comment, or something more? My mind traveled to Sev\nbeing overwhelmed by the Sand Garden (XIX), and his comment, \"\"I felt I\nbelonged there,\" I said. \"That I was to meet someone ... and that a\ncertain woman was there, nearby, but concealed from sight.\"\" Don't\nknow; probably nothing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see a connection between the pebbles and the Sand Garden, but the\nSand Garden to some extent replicated/foreshadowed what would happen months\nlater on the beach, right down to the tracks of the two-wheeled cart, which\nhad no business being on that beach. The person he was to meet was likely\nhis future self, and the concealed woman almost certainly the part of Thecla\nthat would soon be forever part of him, and *was* in him that day on the\nbeach.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-11T19:05:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter II: Severian", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6d56d$9dfb9520$ba3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Addressing some notes from JWillard's post (and apologies for repeating \nthings from my previous posts)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paragraph #3: \"That first recollection is of piling pebbles in the Old \nYard.\" Casual comment, or >something more?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is very important, paired with Severian's later, augmented \nrecollection of piling pebbles, \"as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's \nmounted guard\". Others attribute this less importance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "#5: Does the layout of where the different social strata are buried help us \nanywhere else?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does the location of Vodalus' victim mark her as an armiger? She is on \nhigher ground, not near the river, right? I notice the term \"potter's \nfield\" is used for the burial area of the scruffiest. The internet says: \"A \npotter's field is a place for the burial of unknown or indigent people.\" and \n\"The term comes from Matthew 27:7 in the New Testament of the Bible, in \nwhich priests take 30 pieces of silver returned by a repentant Judas and \n\"used the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "#6: \"...observing how cruel the women were and how often they exceeded the \npunishments he >had decreed...\" Is Wolfe in agreement with Severian and \nYmar, or is this misogynous comment >specific to his characters?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In our politically correct world, this comment might seem misogynistic but I \ndon't see it that way. First, the comment has an ironic tone because women \nare stereotyped as the nurturing gender. A similar comment noting men are \nmore cruel than women wouldn't garner much attention. It might be Wolfe \nacknowledging the stereotype of the ball-busting woman who has been given \nunchecked power. Then again we have Severian killing Madame Prisca for the \ncrime of a bit of cruel taunting...Looking across all Wolfe's work I think \nit could be said that males and females generally tend to stay within \ntraditional gender roles (yes, there are exceptions, but generally..)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "#8: What \"great northern clan\" does Eata believe he belongs to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is pure fantasy. Eata's blonde hair and light complexion mark \nhim as being from the South." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "#9: Crucial paragraph, but I have no new observations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have one, I think. There are 5 coffins. \"..two empty ones lay on the \nfloor. Three more too heavy for me to shift and still intact, waited on the \nshelves along one wall.\" Some have wondered when Severian's corpse might \nreturn to inhabit one of the empty coffins but it is the closed coffins \n(presumably full?) which are \"waiting\" not the open ones.\n This ties to my previoius posts suggesting the five coffins refer to the \nfive heads of Cerberus, lliterary avatars of Wolfe, and a cameo appearance \nin the funeral bronze. If the two open coffins gave us #5 and Severian then \nwho will be released from the other three? Latro?, Silk?, Horn? Anyone \nhave thoughts on who Wolfe's primary avatars would be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "#26: Is he in Thecla's cell? Mother's cell?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He hears a woman crying. I think it is his mother's cell, the near-death \nexperience forcing his memory back further than stacking pebbles. Later (in \nUrth?) he remembers nursing in a cell and a dark haired woman, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "#28: Why does the boatman (Charonus?) have \"tar-stained clothes\"? I'm \nsure it's something >obvious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sailors on old wooden ships and boats would waterproof them with pitch or \ntar, making \"tar\" a nickname for sailors. This boatman, Dorcas' husband and \nMaxellindis' uncle are all sailors and all discuss undines so I think they \nmight all be the same person, Severian failing to notice. (I don't have \nCitadel here but wasn't Dorcas' final boat \"freshly pitched\"?)\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609111334r573c0f4bj4db4bb71a1bbc65c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-11T20:34:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Close Reading: Torturer Chapter II: Severian", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6d56d$9dfb9520$ba3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A very few additional comments.\n\nA rose is traditionally (among other things) a symbol of the\nTrinity; Dante's vision of God at the end of the _Commedia_\nis an eternally-unfolding Rose.\n\nPara7: \"In our Matachin Tower, a certain bar of iron thrusts\nfrom a bulkhead at the height of a man's groin.\" Am I the\nonly person who has had some rather grisly thoughts about\nwhat this bar was _for_?\n\nAlso Para7, on time scale: \"...the days of Ymar...are now\nby many hundreds of years forgotten.\"\n\nPara13: What is \"high-toss-cockle?\" I don't actually suppose\nit's important, just curious...\n\nGeneral on Gyoll: They're swimming in the sewage of\neveryone upriver.\n\nPara16: Someone asked about Potter's Field. It's a pretty\ncommon term for the place where paupers are buried; it's\nused ironically in the film _It's A Wonderful Life_ -- the evil\nbanker is named \"Potter,\" and in the allohistorical world\nwhere George Bailey never lived, Bedford Falls becomes\na city of the dead, a Potter's Field.\n\nPara20: \"I have chosen to describe all this now because I\nnever went again after the day on which I saved Vodalus.\"\nNot to mention that this is the earliest part of his life he's\nnarrating at all, so it makes sense to give some detail...\nSeverian is often defensive about his narrative choices.\n\nPara25ff: Apparition of Malrubius: Sev's first encounter\nwith the giantess is accompanied by his first encounter\nwith an aquastor, suggesting strongly that his near-drowning\nis part of the **plan** by which the Hiero*s are manipulating\nhim to his fate.\n\nPara26: Note that the giantess throws him up by flinging him\ndown.\n\nPara27: \"I was enveloped in eyes as one is enveloped in\nthe repetitious patterns of a kaleidoscope...\" this is pretty\nclose to one of the descriptions of an angel (I think a\ncherub?) in the Old Testament. I don't think it's Eata's eyes,\nor those of the crowd, he's seeing here.\n\nPara33ff: the old boatman seekign a woman. I don't think\nhe's asking about the Brides; I think he's looking for Dorcas." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nI've got a piece of braaaaain lodge in me heeead!!!" } ] } ] }