{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4722", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4722, "subject": "Roche", "messages": 7, "voices": 6, "first": "2006-09-17T20:39:29+00:00", "last": "2006-09-19T17:28:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<450DB281.3020800@charter.net>", "from": { "name": "JWillard", "address": "aldenweer at charter.net" }, "date": "2006-09-17T20:39:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Roche", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, I could swear I've seen this theory sketched somewhere: Roche is a \nservant of higher manipulative forces and is spying (at the least) on \nSeverian. I've skimmed through Borski's book, Wright's book and \nsearched in the archives, but I'm missing it. Regardless, one of the \nthings that has struck me in closely reading the first several chapters \nis how active much of an active participant Roche is.\n\nChapter 1: \"I would have hidden, but Roche held me...\"\n\nChapter 2: Roche seems to be the one who succeeds in 'reviving' \nSeverian. \"...with Roche, then Drotte, then Roche again, breathing into \nmy mouth.\" \"At last I pulled away from Roche and vomited great \nquantities of black water.\"\n\nChapter 9: Roche takes Sev to the House Azure and basically controls the \nwhole transaction: Sev has an overwhelming response to Barbea, the first \nprostitute introduced, using the loaded word 'golden' to describe her \nhair three times. But as he's about to say he wants her: \"Before I \ncould catch my breath, Roche said, \"Let's see some of the others.\"\" \nThen, after Gracia, \"Thecla\" comes out. Although at first Sev thinks it \nis the same Thecla, he is already starting to see through the illusion \nby the end of his observation: \"...though certainly this woman was \nsomewhat shorter.\"\nBut then the transaction goes ahead. \"\"It is she you wish, then,\" our \nhost said. I could not recall speaking. Roche stepped forward with a \nleather burse, announcing that he would pay for both of us. I watched \nthe coins as he drew them out, waiting to see the gleam of a chrisos. \nIt was not there - there were only a few asimi.\" So, it seems Roche \nhas been instructed to choose \"Thecla\" for Sev. Also, the imagery there \nis interesting: After the intense reaction Sev has to Barbea's \"golden\" \nfeatures, he's fixed up with Thecla and looks to see a golden chrisos \nbut sees only silver asimi. \n\nChapter 12: \"The next morning Master Gurloes ordered me to assist him in \nperforming the excruciation. Roche came with us.\"\n\nMaybe this is all trivial, but the reason I really started looking at it \nis this bit from chapter three of Shadow:\n\n \"There was a loose stone in the floor almost at the foot of my \nfuneral bronze. I pried it up and put the chrisos under it, then \nmuttered an incantation I had learned years before from Roche, a few \nlines of verse that would hold hidden objects safe:\n\nWhere I put you, there you lie,\nNever let a stranger spy,\nLike glass grow to any eye,\nNot of me.\n\nHere be safe, never leave it,\nShould a hand come, deceive it,\nLet strange eyes not believe it,\nTill I see.\"\n\nThis bit's always nagged at me, and I think this is why: It almost \nsounds like a hypnotic chant. A chrisos=gold=sun is hidden then \nprotected by this incantation: as the sun in Sev is hidden by some kind \nof post-hypnosis? So he doesn't see, or others? Either way, this \npassage has always seemed extra important, and this is all that makes \nsense to me.\n\nAnd the real Saint Roche was arrested as a spy.\n\nI've read in the archives questions about the significance of Roche's \nhair color (The Autarch says: \"\"You have been here previously, have you \nnot? I remember your red hair and high color. Far to the south, in the \nnarrow lands, the savages paint a fire spirit much like you.\"\") and the \nRoche limit and Roche lobe. It strikes me that (and I am science \nstupid, so bear with me) this involves binary systems. Is Roche in some \nway the dying (red) sun balanced by Sev's new? Can anyone out there \nmake anything coherent out of this? Because, as I'm aware, I'm failing \nmiserably..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001601c6dae0$fefd9940$b53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-09-18T05:12:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Roche", "in_reply_to": "<450DB281.3020800@charter.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JWillard wrote:\nWhere I put you, there you lie,\nNever let a stranger spy,\nLike glass grow to any eye,\nNot of me.\n\nHere be safe, never leave it,\nShould a hand come, deceive it,\nLet strange eyes not believe it,\nTill I see.\"\n\nThis bit's always nagged at me, and I think this is why: It almost\nsounds like a hypnotic chant. A chrisos=gold=sun is hidden then\nprotected by this incantation: as the sun in Sev is hidden by some kind\nof post-hypnosis? So he doesn't see, or others? Either way, this\npassage has always seemed extra important, and this is all that makes\nsense to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't really have much to add except to point out that when the\nincantation is repeated near the end of CITADEL, \"glass\" has been replaced\nwith \"grass\". I don't know if it is a typo, or an error by Wolfe or\nSeverian. That and, of course, the hidden coin is false gold. Why would\nVodalus have been carrying a counterfeit coin?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487414800.20060918125320@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2006-09-18T10:53:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Roche", "in_reply_to": "<001601c6dae0$fefd9940$b53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Roy," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Monday, September 18, 2006, 7:12:06 AM, you wrote:\nJWillard wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where I put you, there you lie,\nNever let a stranger spy,\nLike glass grow to any eye,\nNot of me.\n\nHere be safe, never leave it,\nShould a hand come, deceive it,\nLet strange eyes not believe it,\nTill I see.\"\n\nThis bit's always nagged at me, and I think this is why: It almost\nsounds like a hypnotic chant. A chrisos=gold=sun is hidden then\nprotected by this incantation: as the sun in Sev is hidden by some kind\nof post-hypnosis? So he doesn't see, or others? Either way, this\npassage has always seemed extra important, and this is all that makes\nsense to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't really have much to add except to point out that when the\nincantation is repeated near the end of CITADEL, \"glass\" has been replaced\nwith \"grass\". I don't know if it is a typo, or an error by Wolfe or\nSeverian. That and, of course, the hidden coin is false gold. Why would\nVodalus have been carrying a counterfeit coin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because Vodalus is counterfeit New Sun." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nZobacz samochody przyszlosci! >>> http://link.interia.pl/f199d" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200609182203.14451.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-09-19T02:03:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Roche", "in_reply_to": "<001601c6dae0$fefd9940$b53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 18 September 2006 01:12, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThat and, of course, the hidden coin is false gold. Why would\nVodalus have been carrying a counterfeit coin?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps to use precisely as he used it - to give out as markers. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-19T11:56:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Roche", "in_reply_to": "<200609182203.14451.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "JWillard writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "one of the things that has struck me in closely reading the first several \nchapters is how active much of an active participant Roche is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can agree with that in conjunction with the observation that Severian \nperiodically mentions Roche during his travels while I don't think Drotte \ngets much mention at all. The red hair seems like it could be significant \n(given Fechin, Talos, Jolenta, Daria?). On the other hand, when Severian, \nas Autarch, confronts Roche at the end of BoTNS, he seems merely a friend \nand devoted guild member with no hint of being a secret agent, cosmic or \notherwise.\n\n\nRoy writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't really have much to add except to point out that when the\nincantation is repeated near the end of CITADEL, \"glass\" has been replaced\nwith \"grass\". I don't know if it is a typo, or an error by Wolfe or\nSeverian. That and, of course, the hidden coin is false gold. Why would\nVodalus have been carrying a counterfeit coin?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I noticed the glass/grass issue also and had generally felt it must be a \ntypo. The only doubt I have comes from a similar question which has been \nraised in this archive about a certain passage in Shadow Ch.2. Severian \nimagines a miraculous light which engenders life in objects it falls upon, \nso a leaf plucked from a bush grows legs and a rough brown brush opens black \neyes and scurries up a tree. Does he mean a cleaning brush? A brush plant? \n Is this a typo and a redundant bush was meant? Is there some deeper \npurpose to confusing man-made objects with plants? Ahhh, probably a typo.\n\nSeverian discovers the false nature of the coin given him by Vodalus because \nit resembles the false coin Dr. Talos gives him at the end of Citadel. In a \nrecent dialog with Dan'l, it was discussed that Dr. Talos' cane sword may \nhave been acquired as a \"dropsie\" from Vodalus in his audience. Is it \npossible the false coin also came from Vodalus or Hildegrin in the audience?\n\nIs it auctorial inconsistency that Vodalus has (has made?) counterfeit coins \nwith the Autarch's face on it, yet he is unable to recognize the Autarch \nwhen he has him in custody. Vodalus desperately wants to possess the \nAutarch's memories and has strong reason to suspect Appian (sorry Tony \nEllis) or Severian is the autarch but somehow lets them both slip through \nhis fingers without so much as a taste.\n\nStanislaus explains Vodalus' counterfeit coin as:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because Vodalus is counterfeit New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Vodalus' dreams of a new galactic empire suggest he is more of a \ncounterfeit Typhon.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060919144147.14144.qmail@web50902.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Macronaut", "address": "macronaut at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-09-19T14:41:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Roche", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian. That and, of course, the hidden coin is false gold. Why would\nVodalus have been carrying a counterfeit coin?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n I think this is intended to show us how cheap Vodalus' apparent romantic nobility is -- it shows him as a common and mean-spirited grifter at heart." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian discovers the false nature of the coin given him by Vodalus because it resembles the false coin Dr. Talos gives him at the end of Citadel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n This is an excellent point, and I think this event clearly is meant to contrast Vodalus and Talos. Talos is a con man too, but is (1) up front and open about his graft; and (2) honest with others about his intentions even when it doesn't seem so (because they don't want to hear the message he's communicating). This gives Talos a form of integrity which contrasts well with Vodalus, who conceals graft and treachery under a virtuous and idealistic seeming.\n \n Hope in this post that I'm not doing any of those complicated things that make the Theanthropos cry.\n \n Macronaut\n_______________________________________________-" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1263464240.20060919192800@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2006-09-19T17:28:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Roche", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tuesday, September 19, 2006, 1:56:11 PM, you wrote:\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stanislaus explains Vodalus' counterfeit coin as:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because Vodalus is counterfeit New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Vodalus' dreams of a new galactic empire suggest he is more of a\ncounterfeit Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-bsharp" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon is also a counterfeit saviour.\n\nThe situation of the human civilisation in the Sun-cycles is best\nexplained, I think, by the Toynbee's theory about civilisation. The\ndying sun is only a symptom of a deeper malady. The civilisation of\nhumanity had been declaining long before this, as we can learn from\nCyriaca's story.\n\nToynbee describes three false, and one true, kinds of saviours trying to support a dying\ncivilisation. Saviour with a Sword. Saviour with a Time-Machine,\nPhilosopher masked by a King, and God incarnate in a Man.\n\nhttp://nobsblog.blogspot.com/1999/03/study-of-history.html (table of\ncontext with some excerpts)\n\n1. Saviour with a sword - most straightforward method, exemplified by\nTyphon. He tries to rebuild the empire by military means. The wars can\nsucceed and fail, but since that kind of saviour never tries to cure\nthe source of the malady, only the symptoms, he is ultimately futile.\n\n2. Saviour with a Time Machine - he tries to return the society to an\nearlier, healthy state. But since the present situation is the result\nof the former, it will appear again - even if he managed to restore\nthe past, which is impossible.\n\nTyphon tries to do something of the kind in the Whorl. He knows,\nhowever, of the above mentioned problem (his advisors,\nat least, must have posessed an unimaginable learning) and have a more\nreasonable plan. He suspects that the present society is doomed -\nalthough he will try his imperial plan despite of this.\n\nBut building the Whorl, his secondary attempt to save humanity, he assumes that the\ncivilisation of his time has some flaw which doomed it. Maybe it took\na wrong decision at some time (Cyriaca's thinking machines?, or enmity\nto tradition?). Anyhow, he assumes that if his empire should fail (and that\nis eventuality for which the Whorl is prepared) it would mean that he\ndid not know or couldn't remedy this fault.\n\nTherefore, he tries to begin again - the societies of the Whorl are new\nones, disconnected from Urth. What's more, Whorl is divided into separate\ncities, each with a different culture. (Some quite original, like\nAmazons, some copied from history). Typhon's intention is to dump\nthem all on the surface of some far away planet, not contaminated\nby his own, doomed civilisation, and allow them to fight for survival,\nin a Darwinian fashion.\n\n3 Philosopher masked by a King. He has an idea how to organize the state in\naccordance with reason - he wants to be a Philosopher-King. Unfortunately,\nhe is unable to persuade the people, and must use strength - so in the end he\nis merely a King, not a Philosopher. Ymar the Almost Just is a very succesful\nexample of a would-be Philosopher King.\n\n4. The God incarnate in a Man. A prophet, who knows the society is\ndoomed, and who creates a new religion, which will carry the light and\nallow a new, more advanced civilisation to form after a period of\nbarbarism. - This is the true New Sun, who destroys to create.\n\n\nPS. You are right. Vodalus is, as you noted, a counterfeit Typhon - empty propaganda.\nTyphon nearly managed to create his empire. Vodalus couldn't\neven imagine how to go about trying to do it.\n\nPPS. Most rich people had chrisos. Few have managed to unmask\ndifferent personalities of the old Autarch (or of Severian). We must\nassume that they didn't look very similar to the official image." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\nSzybko i tanio ubezpiecz samochod! \nKupno polisy zajmie Ci 15 minut! Kontakt przez telefon albo Internet. \nKliknij i sprawdz: http://link.interia.pl/f19a0" } ] } ] }