Subject: (urth) Roche

From: JWillard <aldenweer at charter.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 20:39:29 +0000

OK, I could swear I've seen this theory sketched somewhere: Roche is a 
servant of higher manipulative forces and is spying (at the least) on 
Severian.  I've skimmed through Borski's book, Wright's book and 
searched in the archives, but I'm missing it.  Regardless, one of the 
things that has struck me in closely reading the first several chapters 
is how active much of an active participant Roche is.

Chapter 1: "I would have hidden, but Roche held me..."

Chapter 2: Roche seems to be the one who succeeds in 'reviving' 
Severian.  "...with Roche, then Drotte, then Roche again, breathing into 
my mouth."  "At last I pulled away from Roche and vomited great 
quantities of black water."

Chapter 9: Roche takes Sev to the House Azure and basically controls the 
whole transaction: Sev has an overwhelming response to Barbea, the first 
prostitute introduced, using the loaded word 'golden' to describe her 
hair three times.  But as he's about to say he wants her: "Before I 
could catch my breath, Roche said, "Let's see some of the others.""  
Then, after Gracia, "Thecla" comes out.  Although at first Sev thinks it 
is the same Thecla, he is already starting to see through the illusion 
by the end of his observation: "...though certainly this woman was 
somewhat shorter."
But then the transaction goes ahead.  ""It is she you wish, then," our 
host said.  I could not recall speaking.  Roche stepped forward with a 
leather burse, announcing that he would pay for both of us.  I watched 
the coins as he drew them out, waiting to see the gleam of a chrisos.  
It was not there - there were only a few asimi."   So, it seems Roche 
has been instructed to choose "Thecla" for Sev.  Also, the imagery there 
is interesting:  After the intense reaction Sev has to Barbea's "golden" 
features, he's fixed up with Thecla and looks to see a golden chrisos 
but sees only silver asimi. 

Chapter 12: "The next morning Master Gurloes ordered me to assist him in 
performing the excruciation.  Roche came with us."

Maybe this is all trivial, but the reason I really started looking at it 
is this bit from chapter three of Shadow:

    "There was a loose stone in the floor almost at the foot of my 
funeral bronze.  I pried it up and put the chrisos under it, then 
muttered an incantation I had learned years before from Roche, a few 
lines of verse that would hold hidden objects safe:

Where I put you, there you lie,
Never let a stranger spy,
Like glass grow to any eye,
Not of me.

Here be safe, never leave it,
Should a hand come, deceive it,
Let strange eyes not believe it,
Till I see."

This bit's always nagged at me, and I think this is why: It almost 
sounds like a hypnotic chant.  A chrisos=gold=sun is hidden then 
protected by this incantation: as the sun in Sev is hidden by some kind 
of post-hypnosis?  So he doesn't see, or others?  Either way, this 
passage has always seemed extra important, and this is all that makes 
sense to me.

And the real Saint Roche was arrested as a spy.

I've read in the archives questions about the significance of Roche's 
hair color (The Autarch says: ""You have been here previously, have you 
not?  I remember your red hair and high color.  Far to the south, in the 
narrow lands, the savages paint a fire spirit much like you."") and the 
Roche limit and Roche lobe.  It strikes me that (and I am science 
stupid, so bear with me) this involves binary systems.  Is Roche in some 
way the dying (red) sun balanced by Sev's new?  Can anyone out there 
make anything coherent out of this?  Because, as I'm aware, I'm failing 
miserably...

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 05:12:06 +0000

>passage has always seemed extra important, and this is all that makes

I don't really have much to add except to point out that when the
incantation is repeated near the end of CITADEL, "glass" has been replaced
with "grass". I don't know if it is a typo, or an error by Wolfe or
Severian. That and, of course, the hidden coin is false gold. Why would
Vodalus have been carrying a counterfeit coin?

-Roy

---

From: Stanislaus <sbocian at poczta.fm>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:53:20 +0000

Hello Roy,

> -Roy

Because Vodalus is counterfeit New Sun.

-- 
Best regards,
 Stanislaus                           mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm

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From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 02:03:14 +0000

On Monday 18 September 2006 01:12, Roy C. Lackey wrote:
> That and, of course, the hidden coin is false gold. Why would

Perhaps to use precisely as he used it - to give out as markers.

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:56:11 +0000

JWillard writes:

>one of the things that has struck me in closely reading the first several 
>chapters is how active much of an active participant Roche is.

I can agree with that in conjunction with the observation that Severian 
periodically mentions Roche during his travels while I don't think Drotte 
gets much mention at all.  The red hair seems like it could be significant 
(given Fechin, Talos, Jolenta, Daria?).  On the other hand, when Severian, 
as Autarch, confronts Roche at the end of BoTNS, he seems merely a friend 
and devoted guild member with no hint of being a secret agent, cosmic or 
otherwise.

>Vodalus have been carrying a counterfeit coin?

I noticed the glass/grass issue also and had generally felt it must be a 
typo.  The only doubt I have comes from a similar question which has been 
raised in this archive about a certain passage in Shadow Ch.2.  Severian 
imagines a miraculous light which engenders life in objects it falls upon, 
so a leaf plucked from a bush grows legs and a rough brown brush opens black 
eyes and scurries up a tree.  Does he mean a cleaning brush?  A brush plant? 
  Is this a typo and a redundant bush was meant?  Is there some deeper 
purpose to confusing man-made objects with plants?  Ahhh, probably a typo.

Severian discovers the false nature of the coin given him by Vodalus because 
it resembles the false coin Dr. Talos gives him at the end of Citadel.  In a 
recent dialog with Dan'l, it was discussed that Dr. Talos' cane sword may 
have been acquired as a "dropsie" from Vodalus in his audience.  Is it 
possible the false coin also came from Vodalus or Hildegrin in the audience?

Is it auctorial inconsistency that Vodalus has (has made?) counterfeit coins 
with the Autarch's face on it, yet he is unable to recognize the Autarch 
when he has him in custody.  Vodalus desperately wants to possess the 
Autarch's memories and has strong reason to suspect Appian (sorry Tony 
Ellis) or Severian is the autarch but somehow lets them both slip through 
his fingers without so much as a taste.

>Because Vodalus is counterfeit New Sun.

I think Vodalus' dreams of a new galactic empire suggest he is more of a 
counterfeit Typhon.

-bsharp

---

From: Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:41:47 +0000

>Vodalus have been carrying a counterfeit coin?
   
  I think this is intended to show us how cheap Vodalus' apparent romantic nobility is -- it shows him as a common and mean-spirited grifter at heart.
  
>Severian discovers the false nature of the coin given him by Vodalus because it resembles the false coin Dr. Talos gives him at the end of Citadel.
   
  This is an excellent point, and I think this event clearly is meant to contrast Vodalus and Talos.  Talos is a con man too, but is (1) up front and open about his graft; and (2) honest with others about his intentions even when it doesn't seem so (because they don't want to hear the message he's communicating).  This gives Talos a form of integrity which contrasts well with Vodalus, who conceals graft and treachery under a virtuous and idealistic seeming.
   
  Hope in this post that I'm not doing any of those complicated things that make the Theanthropos cry.
   
  Macronaut
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From: Stanislaus <sbocian at poczta.fm>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:28:00 +0000

Tuesday, September 19, 2006, 1:56:11 PM, you wrote:

...

> -bsharp

Typhon is also a counterfeit saviour.

The situation of the human civilisation in the Sun-cycles is best
explained, I think, by the Toynbee's theory about civilisation. The
dying sun is only a symptom of a deeper malady. The civilisation of
humanity had been declaining long before this, as we can learn from
Cyriaca's story.

Toynbee describes three false, and one true, kinds of saviours trying to support a dying
civilisation. Saviour with a Sword. Saviour with a Time-Machine,
Philosopher masked by a King, and God incarnate in a Man.

http://nobsblog.blogspot.com/1999/03/study-of-history.html   (table of
context with some excerpts)

1. Saviour with a sword - most straightforward method, exemplified by
Typhon. He tries to rebuild the empire by military means. The wars can
succeed and fail, but since that kind of saviour never tries to cure
the source of the malady, only the symptoms, he is ultimately futile.

2. Saviour with a Time Machine - he tries to return the society to an
earlier, healthy state. But since the present situation is the result
of the former, it will appear again - even if he managed to restore
the past, which is impossible.

Typhon tries to do something of the kind in the Whorl. He knows,
however, of the above mentioned problem (his advisors,
at least, must have posessed an unimaginable learning) and have a more
reasonable plan. He suspects that the present society is doomed -
although he will try his imperial plan despite of this.

But building the Whorl, his secondary attempt to save humanity, he assumes that the
civilisation of his time has some flaw which doomed it. Maybe it took
a wrong decision at some time (Cyriaca's thinking machines?, or enmity
to tradition?). Anyhow, he assumes that if his empire should fail (and that
is eventuality for which the Whorl is prepared) it would mean that he
did not know or couldn't remedy this fault.

Therefore, he tries to begin again - the societies of the Whorl are new
ones, disconnected from Urth. What's more, Whorl is divided into separate
cities, each with a different culture. (Some quite original, like
Amazons, some copied from history).  Typhon's intention is to dump
them all on the surface of some far away planet, not contaminated
by his own, doomed civilisation, and allow them to fight for survival,
in a Darwinian fashion.

3 Philosopher masked by a King. He has an idea how to organize the state in
accordance with reason - he wants to be a Philosopher-King. Unfortunately,
he is unable to persuade the people, and must use strength - so in the end he
is merely a King, not a Philosopher. Ymar the Almost Just is a very succesful
example of a would-be Philosopher King.

4. The God incarnate in a Man. A prophet, who knows the society is
doomed, and who creates a new religion, which will carry the light and
allow a new, more advanced civilisation to form after a period of
barbarism. - This is the true New Sun, who destroys to create.

PS. You are right. Vodalus is, as you noted, a counterfeit Typhon - empty propaganda.
Typhon nearly managed to create his empire. Vodalus couldn't
even imagine how to go about trying to do it.

PPS. Most rich people had chrisos. Few have managed to unmask
different personalities of the old Autarch (or of Severian). We must
assume that they didn't look very similar to the official image.
-- 
Best regards,
 Stanislaus                           mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm

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