{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4724", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4724, "subject": "Thecla's fourth book", "messages": 10, "voices": 6, "first": "2006-09-30T06:16:32+00:00", "last": "2006-10-03T21:52:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000c01c6e457$fd6e74c0$553ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-09-30T06:16:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla's fourth book", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "b sharp, a few weeks ago, wrote:\nHe [Talos] seems to understand Urth to Ushas better than anyone else. How\ndoes he know about the woman on the Path of Air?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Talos's play bears only a superficial resemblance to the actual events\nrelated in URTH concerning the end of Urth.\n\nLogically, there is no way that Talos could have known about her. I think\nthis is one of those situations where the sequel to NEW SUN doesn't mesh\nperfectly with the original tetralogy. We all know that when Wolfe wrote NEW\nSUN he didn't plan on writing URTH. It seems to me that once the decision to\nwrite Book 5 was made, Wolfe was forced to flesh out to some degree what was\npresent only skeletally in his mind. I think he found it necessary to make\nsome changes to his original concept.\n\nOne place where this is evident is the last line of CITADEL. Severian, just\nbefore leaving Urth for Yesod, wrote that he was writing in what would be\n\"the last year of the old sun.\" That turned out not to be true. For whatever\nreason, in URTH Wolfe made life go on on Urth for another forty years before\nthe coming of the New Sun and the flood.\n\nAnother change seems to concern the author of one of the four books Thecla\nrequested from the library, the book we are told the least about. That book\nis never named in NEW SUN, but it is named in the last paragraph of the\nessay \"Books in _The Book of the New Sun_\" in PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING. It is\n_The Book of the New Sun_. That essay concludes: \"For the library of Master\nUltan is in _The Book of the New Sun_, and _The Book of the New Sun_ is in\nhis library. And you are the readers of that book.\"\n\nNot really. That essay was written in 1984, after the publication of NEW SUN\nbut before URTH was written. Evidently Wolfe found reason to change his\nmind. A paradox doesn't bother Wolfe, judging from the flippant definition\nof the word he gave in OTTER, but maybe he had second thoughts about Thecla\n(and Severian) reading and studying a book that had not yet been written,\nSeverian's own _The Book of the New Sun_. Ultan and his library are indeed\nin Severian's book -- but so are the chapters dealing with Thecla sitting in\na cell studying that book, which also relates her torture and death and\nSeverian's complicity in same. The book also affords Severian a blueprint of\nhis near future. We have been \"the readers of that book.\"\n\nWhatever Wolfe's motive, in URTH he created a new character who is the\nauthor of a second book with the same title as Severian's original book.\nAfter being sent from Yesod to Typhon's era to establish the Conciliator\nlegend, Severian entertained some of his followers in his cell:\n\n\"Declan wished to know how Urth would fare when the\nNew Sun came; and I, understanding little more than he\ndid himself, drew upon Dr. Talos's play, never thinking\nthat in a time yet to come Dr. Talos's play would be drawn\nfrom my words.\" (URTH, 266)\n\nCanog, in the next cell, overheard this speech, took notes and eventually\nwrote a little book he called _The Book of the New Sun_. That is the book of\nthat title that Thecla read in her cell. Neither Ultan nor his library were\nmentioned in Severian's little sermon. They were not mentioned in Canog's\nbook. None of us have read that book and I don't expect we ever will.\n\nMany centuries later, Talos read Canog's book and based his play on it. We\nhave a closed circle of causality in which none of the three men involved\nwere the original source, each citing one of the others as his source.\nSeverian's words were based on Talos's play; the play was based on Canog's\nbook and the book was based on Severian's words.\n\nAnd the mysterious woman on the Path of Air was outside that loop. Severian\nsaw her only after returning from Typhon's era to his own on the last day of\nUrth. She wasn't in either Severian's or Canog's _The Book of the New Sun_.\n\nWolfe could easily have avoided this situation by simply omitting the Path\nof Air scene in URTH. After all, there is a lot of other nonsense in the\nplay that does not correspond to what actually happened just before the\narrival of the New Sun. I'm missing something here.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370609292346j7fd93cdbw53ca006e9cc2f8b3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-09-30T06:46:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla's fourth book", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6e457$fd6e74c0$553ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/29/06, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIt seems to me that once the decision to\nwrite Book 5 was made, Wolfe was forced to flesh out to some degree what was\npresent only skeletally in his mind. I think he found it necessary to make\nsome changes to his original concept.\n\nOne place where this is evident is the last line of CITADEL. Severian, just\nbefore leaving Urth for Yesod, wrote that he was writing in what would be\n\"the last year of the old sun.\" That turned out not to be true. For whatever\nreason, in URTH Wolfe made life go on on Urth for another forty years before\nthe coming of the New Sun and the flood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True; but there is no way that Severian could have known that when he\nfinished writing his account. While I'm not arguing that Wolfe _did_ know,\nif he did there would have been no reason for him not to end CITADEL in\nexactly the same way.\n\nJust pickin' nits like a good primate..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nTragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open\nsewer and die.\n - Mel Brooks" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7.0.1.0.2.20061001081244.04ab6938@cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2006-10-01T13:15:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla's fourth book", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6e457$fd6e74c0$553ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:16 AM 9/30/2006, you wrote:\nb sharp, a few weeks ago, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He [Talos] seems to understand Urth to Ushas better than anyone else. How\ndoes he know about the woman on the Path of Air?<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Talos's play bears only a superficial resemblance to the actual events\nrelated in URTH concerning the end of Urth.\n\nLogically, there is no way that Talos could have known about her. I think\nthis is one of those situations where the sequel to NEW SUN doesn't mesh\nperfectly with the original tetralogy. We all know that when Wolfe wrote NEW\nSUN he didn't plan on writing URTH. It seems to me that once the decision to\nwrite Book 5 was made, Wolfe was forced to flesh out to some degree what was\npresent only skeletally in his mind. I think he found it necessary to make\nsome changes to his original concept.\n\nOne place where this is evident is the last line of CITADEL. Severian, just\nbefore leaving Urth for Yesod, wrote that he was writing in what would be\n\"the last year of the old sun.\" That turned out not to be true. For whatever\nreason, in URTH Wolfe made life go on on Urth for another forty years before\nthe coming of the New Sun and the flood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been way too busy to keep up here, but I did catch this. If it \nis really 40 years, then Wolfe has a basis in the New Testament. The \nOld Creation ended in AD 30, at Pentecost, but did not fully end \nuntil the Cataclysm (Flood, the Bible does call it that) in AD 70 \nwith the destruction of Jerusalem, centre of the Olde Order. There is \na two-stage ending, for a variety of reasons into which I need not \ngo. Suffice to say that Wolfe may have had something like this in \nmind, or might call on it if you pressed him !! :-[ Severian (type of \nJesus) made king in \"30\" and world ends fully in \"70\".\n\nJBJordan.\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c6e58f$8fb314c0$b33ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-10-01T19:26:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla's fourth book", "in_reply_to": "<7.0.1.0.2.20061001081244.04ab6938@cox.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JBJordan quoted and wrote:\nOne place where this is evident is the last line of CITADEL. Severian,\njust\nbefore leaving Urth for Yesod, wrote that he was writing in what would be\n\"the last year of the old sun.\" That turned out not to be true. For\nwhatever\nreason, in URTH Wolfe made life go on on Urth for another forty years\nbefore\nthe coming of the New Sun and the flood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been way too busy to keep up here, but I did catch this. If it\nis really 40 years, then Wolfe has a basis in the New Testament. The\nOld Creation ended in AD 30, at Pentecost, but did not fully end\nuntil the Cataclysm (Flood, the Bible does call it that) in AD 70\nwith the destruction of Jerusalem, centre of the Olde Order. There is\na two-stage ending, for a variety of reasons into which I need not\ngo. Suffice to say that Wolfe may have had something like this in\nmind, or might call on it if you pressed him !! :-[ Severian (type of\nJesus) made king in \"30\" and world ends fully in \"70\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Severian was writing ten years after he became autarch. So the gap\nbetween his becoming \"king\" and the \"Cataclysm\" was actually fifty years for\nthose who remained on Urth. I guess you could get around that by saying that\nhe didn't really become \"king\" when he became autarch; rather, he became\n\"king\" when he decided to go to Yesod as Urth's Epitome.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-02T11:27:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla's fourth book", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6e58f$8fb314c0$b33ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Josh Young writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think there is a paradox here. I seem to remember Sev setting a \ncopy of his >memoirs \"Adrift on the sea of time.\" in UotNS. I always \nassumed that it wound up, either by >coincidence or providence in Urth of \nthe pastand was found and subsequently read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The paradox is in causality, as Roy outlined. We have Severian's spoken \nwords inspiring Canog's Book of the New Sun which inspires Talos' \noutrageous and distorted play which inspires Severian's spoken word. A \nclosed loop, which would be okay in the science fiction world except for the \nglitch of Flood Day information which is included in Talos' play. Where does \nit come from? Severian doesn't know about Flood Day when he speaks and \nCanog hears.\n\nNow, there is Urth of the New Sun which is also a journal, written by \nSeverian. Somehow it exists somewhere/when for Gene Wolfe to find and \ntranslate. It has the details of Flood Day in it, including minor details \n(major in regard to Severian's family tree I think) like the woman on the \nPath Of Air. Somehow this information was inserted into the closed loop. \nDid Canog find Urth of the New Sun and insert its information into his book? \n(if so, he also found himself in that book).\n\nIt seems more likely that Dr. Talos found Urth of the New Sun and inserted \nthat stuff into his play. If Dr. Talos had read Book of the New Sun he \nwould have found himself there and would know exactly what would happen to \nBaldanders and him (in Urth he appears only as an eidolon on Yesod). It \nseems more likely that Talos has read only Urth of the New Sun not Book of \nthe New Sun.\n\nI still have trouble seeing how Canog could write such a detailed book, in \nfirst person, based only on Severian's spoken words. Perhaps he found \nSeverian's version of Book Of the New Sun and re-wrote it? I also have \ntrouble seeing how Thecla could have chosen that book. If she had read it \nbefore, she would have known her own fate. If she was only requesting it \nbecause someone recommended it...who would that person be? And why would \nthat person want Thecla to read about her own fate? Or chance Severian \nfinding his own book or...etc. etc.\n\nAll in all I feel forced to the conclusion that Wolfe was playing fast and \nloose when he dealt out this particular deck of cards.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7.0.1.0.2.20061002075512.04bb4b88@cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2006-10-02T12:56:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla's fourth book", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6e58f$8fb314c0$b33ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:26 PM 10/1/2006, you wrote:\nJBJordan quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "One place where this is evident is the last line of CITADEL. Severian,\njust\nbefore leaving Urth for Yesod, wrote that he was writing in what would be\n\"the last year of the old sun.\" That turned out not to be true. For\nwhatever\nreason, in URTH Wolfe made life go on on Urth for another forty years\nbefore\nthe coming of the New Sun and the flood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've been way too busy to keep up here, but I did catch this. If it\nis really 40 years, then Wolfe has a basis in the New Testament. The\nOld Creation ended in AD 30, at Pentecost, but did not fully end\nuntil the Cataclysm (Flood, the Bible does call it that) in AD 70\nwith the destruction of Jerusalem, centre of the Olde Order. There is\na two-stage ending, for a variety of reasons into which I need not\ngo. Suffice to say that Wolfe may have had something like this in\nmind, or might call on it if you pressed him !! :-[ Severian (type of\nJesus) made king in \"30\" and world ends fully in \"70\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Severian was writing ten years after he became autarch. So the gap\nbetween his becoming \"king\" and the \"Cataclysm\" was actually fifty years for\nthose who remained on Urth. I guess you could get around that by saying that\nhe didn't really become \"king\" when he became autarch; rather, he became\n\"king\" when he decided to go to Yesod as Urth's Epitome.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At his \"ascension\" so to speak? Naw. If it's 50 years, then my \nsuggestion falls, and the original suggestion that Wolfe changed some \ndetails remains.\n\nPatera Nutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<02C164F3-0BBE-4FBD-B8C8-52F19E38509F@cogsci.ucsd.edu>", "from": { "name": "Adrian Robert", "address": "arobert at cogsci.ucsd.edu" }, "date": "2006-10-02T12:56:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla's fourth book", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 2, 2006, at 7:27 AM, b sharp wrote:\nI still have trouble seeing how Canog could write such a detailed \nbook, in\nfirst person, based only on Severian's spoken words." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Embellishment? (Marco Polo's \"Travels\", anyone?) As far as the \nunexpected yet coming-to-pass incident of the flood, this could be \ndrawn from the collective unconscious (either — la Jung or Mr. \nClarke, _Childhood's End_). Or simply consciously extrapolated -- \nsome form of destruction occurs, fire and water are the chief \ncandidates..\n\nRegarding the creation of the tale itself in a closed loop, we are \ntold time is a river, and rivers have eddies. This analogy seems not \na stretch in the context of Severian's own semi-looping, semi-linear \ntravels through time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370610020948n31f3fd86xe35e89f6292d4c7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-02T16:48:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla's fourth book", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/2/06, b sharp wrote:\nI still have trouble seeing how Canog could write such a detailed book, in\nfirst person, based only on Severian's spoken words." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always assumed that Canog was prophetically inspired, or the\nequivalent thereof..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nTragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open\nsewer and die.\n - Mel Brooks" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c6e70c$253e46e0$db3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-10-03T16:51:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla's fourth book", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370610020948n31f3fd86xe35e89f6292d4c7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nI still have trouble seeing how Canog could write such a detailed book, in\nfirst person, based only on Severian's spoken words. Perhaps he found\nSeverian's version of Book Of the New Sun and re-wrote it? I also have\ntrouble seeing how Thecla could have chosen that book. If she had read it\nbefore, she would have known her own fate. If she was only requesting it\nbecause someone recommended it...who would that person be? And why would\nthat person want Thecla to read about her own fate? Or chance Severian\nfinding his own book or...etc. etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian did not speak, in Canog's hearing, of his life before going to\nYesod and winning a New Sun, of his rise from apprentice to autarch. He\nspoke as the Conciliator. He talked to his followers about the dying sun and\nthe eventual arrival of a New Sun. Canog's book in no way duplicated or\nrehashed what Severian had written in his own first manuscript of the same\ntitle.\n\nWolfe said in \"Books in _The Book of the New Sun_\" that the four books were\nones \"Thecla might reasonably ask to borrow\". She suddenly found herself in\na bad situation, so she sought help from whatever quarter she thought would\ndo the most good. Wolfe said that she wanted the genealogy folio because the\ninfluence of her relatives represented her best chance of release. She also\nturned to religion. The small green book with the enameled pictures was a\ncollection of devotions, and _The Book of the New Sun_ told the story of\n\"the Conciliator, an intercessor and mediator\". The brown book no doubt also\ncontained stories told by (\"The Tale of the Town that Forgot Fauna\") or\nabout the Conciliator.\n\n(Thecla was in the ironic position [though neither she nor her lover were\naware of it; at least I don't think he was aware] of praying for help from\nthe medium of the Conciliator who had been and would yet come to be, the\nsame boy-toy who brought her the books and who would be instrumental in her\ndeath, the god who came to Urth in Typhon's time and who contained her\nmemories and some degree of her personality. She sought release and I guess\nshe got what she prayed for -- sort of.)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061003215229.8161DDA84A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-10-03T21:52:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thecla's fourth book", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c6e70c$253e46e0$db3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's kind of intersting that \"The Gospel of Sev\" was set \ndown by a Raskolnikov figure who thought it made a cute story - not \nby a devout disciple type. " } ] } ] }