Subject: (urth) Thecla's fourth book

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 06:16:32 +0000

b sharp, a few weeks ago, wrote:
>>He [Talos] seems to understand Urth to Ushas better than anyone else. How
does he know about the woman on the Path of Air?<<

Talos's play bears only a superficial resemblance to the actual events
related in URTH concerning the end of Urth.

Logically, there is no way that Talos could have known about her. I think
this is one of those situations where the sequel to NEW SUN doesn't mesh
perfectly with the original tetralogy. We all know that when Wolfe wrote NEW
SUN he didn't plan on writing URTH. It seems to me that once the decision to
write Book 5 was made, Wolfe was forced to flesh out to some degree what was
present only skeletally in his mind. I think he found it necessary to make
some changes to his original concept.

One place where this is evident is the last line of CITADEL. Severian, just
before leaving Urth for Yesod, wrote that he was writing in what would be
"the last year of the old sun." That turned out not to be true. For whatever
reason, in URTH Wolfe made life go on on Urth for another forty years before
the coming of the New Sun and the flood.

Another change seems to concern the author of one of the four books Thecla
requested from the library, the book we are told the least about. That book
is never named in NEW SUN, but it is named in the last paragraph of the
essay "Books in _The Book of the New Sun_" in PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING. It is
_The Book of the New Sun_. That essay concludes: "For the library of Master
Ultan is in _The Book of the New Sun_, and _The Book of the New Sun_ is in
his library. And you are the readers of that book."

Not really. That essay was written in 1984, after the publication of NEW SUN
but before URTH was written. Evidently Wolfe found reason to change his
mind. A paradox doesn't bother Wolfe, judging from the flippant definition
of the word he gave in OTTER, but maybe he had second thoughts about Thecla
(and Severian) reading and studying a book that had not yet been written,
Severian's own _The Book of the New Sun_. Ultan and his library are indeed
in Severian's book -- but so are the chapters dealing with Thecla sitting in
a cell studying that book, which also relates her torture and death and
Severian's complicity in same. The book also affords Severian a blueprint of
his near future. We have been "the readers of that book."

Whatever Wolfe's motive, in URTH he created a new character who is the
author of a second book with the same title as Severian's original book.
After being sent from Yesod to Typhon's era to establish the Conciliator
legend, Severian entertained some of his followers in his cell:

"Declan wished to know how Urth would fare when the
New Sun came; and I, understanding little more than he
did himself, drew upon Dr. Talos's play, never thinking
that in a time yet to come Dr. Talos's play would be drawn
from my words." (URTH, 266)

Canog, in the next cell, overheard this speech, took notes and eventually
wrote a little book he called _The Book of the New Sun_. That is the book of
that title that Thecla read in her cell. Neither Ultan nor his library were
mentioned in Severian's little sermon. They were not mentioned in Canog's
book. None of us have read that book and I don't expect we ever will.

Many centuries later, Talos read Canog's book and based his play on it. We
have a closed circle of causality in which none of the three men involved
were the original source, each citing one of the others as his source.
Severian's words were based on Talos's play; the play was based on Canog's
book and the book was based on Severian's words.

And the mysterious woman on the Path of Air was outside that loop. Severian
saw her only after returning from Typhon's era to his own on the last day of
Urth. She wasn't in either Severian's or Canog's _The Book of the New Sun_.

Wolfe could easily have avoided this situation by simply omitting the Path
of Air scene in URTH. After all, there is a lot of other nonsense in the
play that does not correspond to what actually happened just before the
arrival of the New Sun. I'm missing something here.

-Roy

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 06:46:05 +0000

On 9/29/06, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote:
> It seems to me that once the decision to

True; but there is no way that Severian could have known that when he
finished writing his account. While I'm not arguing that Wolfe _did_ know,
if he did there would have been no reason for him not to end CITADEL in
exactly the same way.

Just pickin' nits like a good primate...
-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com
Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open
sewer and die.
  - Mel Brooks

---

From: James B. Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:15:07 +0000

>the coming of the New Sun and the flood.

I've been way too busy to keep up here, but I did catch this. If it 
is really 40 years, then Wolfe has a basis in the New Testament. The 
Old Creation ended in AD 30, at Pentecost, but did not fully end 
until the Cataclysm (Flood, the Bible does call it that) in AD 70 
with the destruction of Jerusalem, centre of the Olde Order. There is 
a two-stage ending, for a variety of reasons into which I need not 
go. Suffice to say that Wolfe may have had something like this in 
mind, or might call on it if you pressed him !! :-[ Severian (type of 
Jesus) made king in "30" and world ends fully in "70".

JBJordan.

James B. Jordan
Director, Biblical Horizons
Box 1096
Niceville, FL 32588
http://www.biblicalhorizons.com 
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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 19:26:49 +0000

>Jesus) made king in "30" and world ends fully in "70".

Well, Severian was writing ten years after he became autarch. So the gap
between his becoming "king" and the "Cataclysm" was actually fifty years for
those who remained on Urth. I guess you could get around that by saying that
he didn't really become "king" when he became autarch; rather, he became
"king" when he decided to go to Yesod as Urth's Epitome.

-Roy

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 11:27:11 +0000

Josh Young writes:

>I don't think there is a paradox here. I seem to remember Sev setting a 
>copy of his >memoirs "Adrift on the sea of time." in UotNS. I always 
>assumed that it wound up, either by >coincidence or providence in Urth of 
>the pastand was found and subsequently read.

The paradox is in causality, as Roy outlined.  We have Severian's spoken 
words inspiring Canog's Book of the New Sun which inspires Talos'  
outrageous and distorted play which inspires Severian's spoken word.  A 
closed loop, which would be okay in the science fiction world except for the 
glitch of Flood Day information which is included in Talos' play. Where does 
it come from?  Severian doesn't know about Flood Day when he speaks and 
Canog hears.

Now, there is Urth of the New Sun which is also a journal, written by 
Severian.  Somehow it exists somewhere/when for Gene Wolfe to find and 
translate.  It has the details of Flood Day in it, including minor details 
(major in regard to Severian's family tree I think) like the woman on the 
Path Of Air.  Somehow this information was inserted into the closed loop.  
Did Canog find Urth of the New Sun and insert its information into his book? 
(if so, he also found himself in that book).

It seems more likely that Dr. Talos found Urth of the New Sun and inserted 
that stuff into his play.  If Dr. Talos had read Book of the New Sun he 
would have found himself there and would know exactly what would happen to 
Baldanders and him (in Urth he appears only as an eidolon on Yesod). It 
seems more likely that Talos has read only Urth of the New Sun not Book of 
the New Sun.

I still have trouble seeing how Canog could write such a detailed book, in 
first person, based only on Severian's spoken words.  Perhaps he found 
Severian's version of Book Of the New Sun and re-wrote it?  I also have 
trouble seeing how Thecla could have chosen that book.  If she had read it 
before, she would have known her own fate. If she was only requesting it 
because someone recommended it...who would that person be? And why would 
that person want Thecla to read about her own fate? Or chance Severian 
finding his own book or...etc. etc.

All in all I feel forced to the conclusion that Wolfe was playing fast and 
loose when he dealt out this particular deck of cards.

-bsharp

---

From: James B. Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 12:56:05 +0000

>"king" when he decided to go to Yesod as Urth's Epitome.

At his "ascension" so to speak? Naw. If it's 50 years, then my 
suggestion falls, and the original suggestion that Wolfe changed some 
details remains.

Patera Nutria

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From: Adrian Robert <arobert at cogsci.ucsd.edu>
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 12:56:52 +0000

On Oct 2, 2006, at 7:27 AM, b sharp wrote:

> first person, based only on Severian's spoken words.

Embellishment?  (Marco Polo's "Travels", anyone?)  As far as the  
unexpected yet coming-to-pass incident of the flood, this could be  
drawn from the collective unconscious (either — la Jung or Mr.  
Clarke, _Childhood's End_).  Or simply consciously extrapolated --  
some form of destruction occurs, fire and water are the chief  
candidates..

Regarding the creation of the tale itself in a closed loop, we are  
told time is a river, and rivers have eddies.  This analogy seems not  
a stretch in the context of Severian's own semi-looping, semi-linear  
travels through time.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 16:48:25 +0000

> first person, based only on Severian's spoken words.

I always assumed that Canog was prophetically inspired, or the
equivalent thereof...

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 16:51:10 +0000

>finding his own book or...etc. etc.

Severian did not speak, in Canog's hearing, of his life before going to
Yesod and winning a New Sun, of his rise from apprentice to autarch. He
spoke as the Conciliator. He talked to his followers about the dying sun and
the eventual arrival of a New Sun. Canog's book in no way duplicated or
rehashed what Severian had written in his own first manuscript of the same
title.

Wolfe said in "Books in _The Book of the New Sun_" that the four books were
ones "Thecla might reasonably ask to borrow". She suddenly found herself in
a bad situation, so she sought help from whatever quarter she thought would
do the most good. Wolfe said that she wanted the genealogy folio because the
influence of her relatives represented her best chance of release. She also
turned to religion. The small green book with the enameled pictures was a
collection of devotions, and _The Book of the New Sun_  told the story of
"the Conciliator, an intercessor and mediator". The brown book no doubt also
contained stories told by ("The Tale of the Town that Forgot Fauna") or
about the Conciliator.

(Thecla was in the ironic position [though neither she nor her lover were
aware of it; at least I don't think he was aware] of praying for help from
the medium of the Conciliator who had been and would yet come to be, the
same boy-toy who brought her the books and who would be instrumental in her
death, the god who came to Urth in Typhon's time and who contained her
memories and some degree of her personality. She sought release and I guess
she got what she prayed for -- sort of.)

-Roy

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 21:52:29 +0000

I think it's kind of intersting that "The Gospel of Sev" was set 
down by a Raskolnikov figure who thought it made a cute story - not 
by a devout disciple type.