{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4728", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4728, "subject": "Ouen's Catherine", "messages": 10, "voices": 5, "first": "2006-10-14T00:59:32+00:00", "last": "2006-10-19T05:54:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000a01c6ef2c$05783000$1b3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-10-14T00:59:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen's Catherine", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of Severian's first actions upon returning to the Citadel as autarch was\nto kidnap Ouen. Even if I concede that Severian knew or had reason to\nsuspect at the time that Ouen was Dorcas's son, it wasn't until the\ninnkeeper said that Ouen looked much like an older Severian that Severian\nmade any sort of connection between himself and the waiter. At that point he\nquestioned Ouen about past brushes with the law and a past relationship with\na \"dark woman\".\n\nWhat \"dark woman\" did Severian have in mind, and what did he know, or\nsuspect, about her and this look-alike waiter? I can only conclude that he\ncame to this conversation with a prior notion about a certain dark woman and\nher relationship to himself. The only female who fits the bill is the tall,\nslender, dark maid who acted the part of Holy Katharine on feast day. But\nwhat justification did he have for such a notion? I don't see it in the\ntext. I don't see any indication in the text prior to this scene at the inn\nthat he thought that the maid, or someone who looked like her, might be his\nmother.\n\nOnly after being questioned did Ouen say that her name had been Catherine.\nCan you hear the difference in spelling between the spoken \"Catherine\" and\n\"Katharine\"? I can't, and I don't think Severian could either.\n\nIt seems that it was on this second visit to the inn that Severian first\nrealized that Dorcas was his grandmother, and then only after first\nconcluding that Ouen was his father. Two revelations about his lineage in\none day.\n\nBut I doubt that the maid who played Katharine was actually his mother.\nOthers have speculated that the maid was a khaibit, which may be so. If\ntrue, then the woman for whom she was a khaibit was likely Ouen's Catherine.\nNothing at all was mentioned about Catherine's height, which is unusual for\nSeverian to omit. If Ouen's Catherine was an exultant, that helps account\nfor Severian's height. (I know that little of this is original to me; I'm\njust trying to figure out Severian's family tree.)\n\nIt is always assumed that the \"order of monials\" Catherine ran away from was\nthe Pelerines. That may also be true, but being tortured to death is hardly\nan apt or likely consequence of deserting a voluntary religious order.\nCatherine's real 'crime' may have been deserting the inner circle of the\nautarch's most valuable hostages. As Gurloes said, some bold chatelaines\ntraded places with their khaibits. Severian was born about the time the Old\nAutarch opened the whore house, when the autarch no longer had any practical\nuse for any sort of concubine.\n\nThe khaibit maid's 'crime' may have been complicity in Catherine's schemes,\nand her punishment her perpetual participation in the torturers' annual\nfeast. Catherine may have tried to hide for a time among the Pelerines, or\nshe may have affected the role, just as Cyriaca later adopted the costume\nfor a party and fooled Severian.\n\nIf Catherine was an exultant, then it must be through her that Severian is\nrelated to Thecla's family. I don't know if it's possible to figure out who\nCatherine's parents were.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061014124851.29431DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-10-14T12:48:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen's Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c6ef2c$05783000$1b3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:59:32 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nWhat \"dark woman\" did Severian have in mind, and what did he know, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or\nsuspect, about her and this look-alike waiter? I can only conclude " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that he\ncame to this conversation with a prior notion about a certain dark " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "woman and\nher relationship to himself. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took this to be just a simple deduction by Sev: He realizes first \nthat Ouen must be his father, then since Ouen is fair & he (Sev) is \ndark, Sev's mother must have been dark also (is that valid \ngenetics?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is always assumed that the \"order of monials\" Catherine ran \naway from was\nthe Pelerines. That may also be true, but being tortured to death \nis hardly\nan apt or likely consequence of deserting a voluntary religious \norder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe there's an analogy with Cyriaca's circumstances. Something \nlike: by running from the Pelerines and taking up with a low-life, \nCatherine brought discredit to Somebody Important (her father?) and \nexemplary punishment upon herself. Sev's mother as Thecla's aunt?\n\nOr: a sister/daughter/whatever of a rebel, she had been consigned \nto the Pelerines under a suspended sentence of death, which became \neffective upon her escape. Sev's mother as Vodalus' sister?\n\nActually, I don't think there's enough information to do very much \nwith any of this. I think we are supposed to see an echo of Sev's \nmother in Cyriaca, but the woman herself is lost. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<10610141623.AA03567@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2006-10-14T16:23:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen's Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<20061014124851.29431DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only after being questioned did Ouen say that her name had been Catherine.\nCan you hear the difference in spelling between the spoken \"Catherine\" and\n\"Katharine\"? I can't, and I don't think Severian could either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What language are they speaking?\n\nI always thought of it as future Spanish, in which case there might be\nmore of a difference between, say, Caterina and Katarina (the latter being\na foreign name)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<453163A1.6000400@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-14T22:24:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen's Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<20061014124851.29431DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\nOn Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:59:32 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What \"dark woman\" did Severian have in mind, and what did he know, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "or\nsuspect, about her and this look-alike waiter? I can only conclude " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that he\ncame to this conversation with a prior notion about a certain dark " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "woman and\nher relationship to himself. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I took this to be just a simple deduction by Sev: He realizes first \nthat Ouen must be his father, then since Ouen is fair & he (Sev) is \ndark, Sev's mother must have been dark also (is that valid \ngenetics?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is, at least among historical humanity. Dark hair is dominant over \nlight, with red incompletely recessive to dark and incompletely dominant \nover light. Of course observed expression is subject to length and \nsummer bleaching, though in the time of Urth, you'd need much greater \nexposure to sun for the latter; sailors and fishermen on the water for \nmost of each day might qualify, as might people working near \nstill-functional lightning-powered machinery, or in well-lit galleries \nof paintings, or making frequent flyer trips above the clouds and ground \nclutter.\n\nYou'll need to track eye color as well as well, dark eyes are likewise \ndominant over light, with exotics like violet and hazel similar in role \nto red." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<453165A3.4000907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-14T22:33:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen's Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<10610141623.AA03567@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David DiGiacomo wrote:\nOnly after being questioned did Ouen say that her name had been Catherine.\nCan you hear the difference in spelling between the spoken \"Catherine\" and\n\"Katharine\"? I can't, and I don't think Severian could either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What language are they speaking?\n\nI always thought of it as future Spanish, in which case there might be\nmore of a difference between, say, Caterina and Katarina (the latter being\na foreign name)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possible; what is \"G.W.\"'s reasoning for using Latin in the text, again?\nThe passage where the ambiguity of English is ridiculed indicates they \naren't speaking English, nor the similarly ambiguous Hebrew, nor \nChinese-descended logograms to write with." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T03:25:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen's Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<453165A3.4000907@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I concur with others who always felt Severian asks about a dark haired woman \nbecause his own hair is dark and Ouen is fair.\n\nRoy writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I doubt that the maid who played Katharine was actually his mother. \nOthers have speculated >that the maid was a khaibit, which may be so. If \ntrue, then the woman for whom she was a >khaibit was likely Ouen's \nCatherine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The maid playing St. Katharine doesn't change appearance year to year in \nSeverian's memory, which I think suggests she is making use of a kaibit \nrather than her being one. Can her unchanging appearance be ignored? This \nmaid is described as being of armiger height. If she was the kaibit of an \nexultant wouldn't she be exultant height? I know some argue the blood \ntransfer is what increases height but that is non-text speculation. I do \nsee some evidence that a kaibit is the twin of her mistress but the blood \ndonation causes a hollow cheeked look.\n\nI agree with Thalassocrat that we are supposed to see an echo of Severian's \nmother in Cyriaca. There is a good chance they were both ex-Pelerines. \nCyriaca was sentenced to die for the crime of cuckolding a high official; \nperhaps Severian's mother also? Who was the dark haired woman with a livd \nface in the coffin in the first chapter? I think the only two \"pale gowns\" \nin the story belong to the woman in the coffin and the woman Severian sees \non the Path of Air.\n\nI had considered that whoever was in the coffin had played St. Katherine for \nyears and then was replaced after her death. But when Severian participates \nin the mock execution, he freezes, and the maid cooly prompts him to \ncontinue as though she was very familiar with the ritual. For these reasons \nI've felt that the maid is the real Catherine and it is a kaibit in the \ncoffin.\n\nThea's heart shaped face has a sharp chin that matches Severian's, but so \nwould Thecla's triangular face. Are hollow cheeks an issue here?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001d01c6f0f4$6911d2a0$8d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-10-16T07:26:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen's Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nThe maid playing St. Katharine doesn't change appearance year to year in\nSeverian's memory, which I think suggests she is making use of a kaibit\nrather than her being one. Can her unchanging appearance be ignored? This\nmaid is described as being of armiger height. If she was the kaibit of an\nexultant wouldn't she be exultant height?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know of no examples in the books of any class other than exultants having\nkhaibits. The maid who played Holy Katharine was not as tall as Thecla. The\nother women who are presumed to be khaibits -- the whores at the House\nAzure -- were likewise not so tall as their originals.\n\nSeverian believed (or at least conveyed the impression of belief) that his\nmother was tortured to death when he was very young. That a dead woman could\nor would make an appearance, unchanged, from year to year is no less\nremarkable than that a khaibit should do it.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4534167E.3050801@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T23:32:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: Ouen's Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<001d01c6f0f4$6911d2a0$8d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nbsharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The maid playing St. Katharine doesn't change appearance year to year in\nSeverian's memory, which I think suggests she is making use of a kaibit\nrather than her being one. Can her unchanging appearance be ignored? This\nmaid is described as being of armiger height. If she was the kaibit of an\nexultant wouldn't she be exultant height?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know of no examples in the books of any class other than exultants having\nkhaibits. The maid who played Holy Katharine was not as tall as Thecla. The\nother women who are presumed to be khaibits -- the whores at the House\nAzure -- were likewise not so tall as their originals.\n\nSeverian believed (or at least conveyed the impression of belief) that his\nmother was tortured to death when he was very young. That a dead woman could\nor would make an appearance, unchanged, from year to year is no less\nremarkable than that a khaibit should do it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An sufficiently wealthy exultant lady could have a series of khaibits, \neach one sustaining her youth and beauty for a few years, then replaced \nby another, newer one. Thus Holy Katharine could be played by a \nsuccession of clones, each one serving for a few years before being \nreplaced by one that much younger, so that the onlookers who only see \n\"her\" for a few minutes each year notice no particular difference in age." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-17T13:05:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen's Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<001d01c6f0f4$6911d2a0$8d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy writes" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know of no examples in the books of any class other than exultants having\nkhaibits. The maid who played Holy Katharine was not as tall as Thecla. The\nother women who are presumed to be khaibits -- the whores at the House\nAzure -- were likewise not so tall as their originals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian believed (or at least conveyed the impression of belief) that his\nmother was tortured to death when he was very young. That a dead woman \ncould\nor would make an appearance, unchanged, from year to year is no less\nremarkable than that a khaibit should do it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not the first to consider that Severian's mother did not die shortly \nafter his birth as most torturers' mothers did. My conjecture that armigers \nmight use kaibits comes from the sketchy evidence of Cyriaca's preserved \nappearance and the Pelagia-Pega pairing. I was foolish to forget the \nkaibits in the House Azure (at least Thecla's) are shorter than their \nmistresses. Making Ouen's Catherine an exultant nicely explains Severian's \ndark hair, pale skin and height (Jolenta/Severa's height also?).\n\nI just can't ignore the circular connection between four characters: The \nwoman in the coffin has dark hair and a pale gown. The woman on the Path of \nAir (\"Carina\" in the Play) has dark hair, a pale gown, a dark (olive) \ncomplexion) and an oval face (like Pelerines) which tears at his heart. The \nmaid who plays Katharine has a dark complexion, a face like a pool of still \nwater (a mirror? oval?). Valeria has dark hair and a face that tears at \nSeverian's heart. Valeria and the maid are of armigette height; we don't \nknow the height of the other two mystery women.\n\nSo, perhaps this scenario works: Exultant Catherine, with a dark, oval \nface, runs from the Pelerines, hooks up with Ouen and then is locked up in \nthe Citadel. Her kaibit is forced to remain in the Citadel and perform as \nSaint Katharine. The kaibit becomes married to an armiger in a tower off the \nAtrium of Time and produces Valeria. After giving birth to twins, Catherine \nmanages to escape her cell (with the help of an apprentice?) and travel the \ncatacombs to the Atrium of Time where she is able to escape to the future \nusing a time portal and the Path of Air. However, she is forced to return \nthe way she came and is given back to the torturers twenty years later where \nher sentence (Allowin's necklace?) is carried out just before Chapter 1 of \nShadow opens.\n\nUnfortunately, if Catherine is an exultant it excludes Cyriaca from being \nher sister, and thus Agia and Agilus from being Severian's cousins. But, \nwhat the heck. Maybe someone can reconcile all this stuff. Someday.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005601c6f343$0d9a1d00$953ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-10-19T05:54:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ouen's Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nHowever, she [Catherine] is forced to return\nthe way she came and is given back to the torturers twenty years later\nwhere\nher sentence (Allowin's necklace?) is carried out just before Chapter 1 of\nShadow opens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it would be rather strange that the torture and death of a woman who\nlooked just like the maid who annually played Holy Katharine would have gone\nunnoticed and unmentioned by Severian and every other member of the guild.\nBesides, the torturers buried their \"clients in the lower reaches of the\nnecropolis\". The woman whose body was taken by Vodalus was buried higher up\nthe hill, among the statuary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unfortunately, if Catherine is an exultant it excludes Cyriaca from being\nher sister," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not necessarily. They might still have been half-sisters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and thus Agia and Agilus from being Severian's cousins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just don't see any text-based connection that links Cyriaca with the\ntwins, but there are some things that weigh against a connection. Cyriaca\nwas apparently a postulant traveling in the southern part of the country\nwith the Pelerines at her time of menarche. Sometime in her last year with\nthem before making her final commitment, she ran away from the order (sound\nfamiliar?) and went home. The Pelerine outfit she wore to the archon's party\nstill fit her, so she must have been full grown when she left the order. So\nshe must have spent several years with them.\n\nI don't think she had the time, motive or opportunity to have ever owned and\noperated a rag shop in the slums of Nessus. But, more importantly, Agia said\nthat their mother had \"bequeathed\" the shop to the twins. I take that to\nmean that their mother was dead.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }