Subject: (urth) Ouen's Catherine

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 00:59:32 +0000

One of Severian's first actions upon returning to the Citadel as autarch was
to kidnap Ouen. Even if I concede that Severian knew or had reason to
suspect at the time that Ouen was Dorcas's son, it wasn't until the
innkeeper said that Ouen looked much like an older Severian that Severian
made any sort of connection between himself and the waiter. At that point he
questioned Ouen about past brushes with the law and a past relationship with
a "dark woman".

What "dark woman" did Severian have in mind, and what did he know, or
suspect, about her and this look-alike waiter? I can only conclude that he
came to this conversation with a prior notion about a certain dark woman and
her relationship to himself. The only female who fits the bill is the tall,
slender, dark maid who acted the part of Holy Katharine on feast day. But
what justification did he have for such a notion? I don't see it in the
text. I don't see any indication in the text prior to this scene at the inn
that he thought that the maid, or someone who looked like her, might be his
mother.

Only after being questioned did Ouen say that her name had been Catherine.
Can you hear the difference in spelling between the spoken "Catherine" and
"Katharine"? I can't, and I don't think Severian could either.

It seems that it was on this second visit to the inn that Severian first
realized that Dorcas was his grandmother, and then only after first
concluding that Ouen was his father. Two revelations about his lineage in
one day.

But I doubt that the maid who played Katharine was actually his mother.
Others have speculated that the maid was a khaibit, which may be so. If
true, then the woman for whom she was a khaibit was likely Ouen's Catherine.
Nothing at all was mentioned about Catherine's height, which is unusual for
Severian to omit. If Ouen's Catherine was an exultant, that helps account
for Severian's height. (I know that little of this is original to me; I'm
just trying to figure out Severian's family tree.)

It is always assumed that the "order of monials" Catherine ran away from was
the Pelerines. That may also be true, but being tortured to death is hardly
an apt or likely consequence of deserting a voluntary religious order.
Catherine's real 'crime' may have been deserting the inner circle of the
autarch's most valuable hostages. As Gurloes said, some bold chatelaines
traded places with their khaibits. Severian was born about the time the Old
Autarch opened the whore house, when the autarch no longer had any practical
use for any sort of concubine.

The khaibit maid's 'crime' may have been complicity in Catherine's schemes,
and her punishment her perpetual participation in the torturers' annual
feast. Catherine may have tried to hide for a time among the Pelerines, or
she may have affected the role, just as Cyriaca later adopted the costume
for a party and fooled Severian.

If Catherine was an exultant, then it must be through her that Severian is
related to Thecla's family. I don't know if it's possible to figure out who
Catherine's parents were.

-Roy

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 12:48:50 +0000

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:59:32 +1000 "Roy C. Lackey" 
<rclackey at stic.net> wrote:

>What "dark woman" did Severian have in mind, and what did he know, 

>or
>suspect, about her and this look-alike waiter? I can only conclude 

>that he
>came to this conversation with a prior notion about a certain dark 

>woman and
>her relationship to himself. 

I took this to be just a simple deduction by Sev: He realizes first 
that Ouen must be his father, then since Ouen is fair & he (Sev) is 
dark, Sev's mother must have been dark also (is that valid 
genetics?).

>an apt or likely consequence of deserting a voluntary religious 

Maybe there's an analogy with Cyriaca's circumstances. Something 
like: by running from the Pelerines and taking up with a low-life, 
Catherine brought discredit to Somebody Important (her father?) and 
exemplary punishment upon herself. Sev's mother as Thecla's aunt?

Or: a sister/daughter/whatever of a rebel, she had been consigned 
to the Pelerines under a suspended sentence of death, which became 
effective upon her escape. Sev's mother as Vodalus' sister?

Actually, I don't think there's enough information to do very much 
with any of this. I think we are supposed to see an echo of Sev's 
mother in Cyriaca, but the woman herself is lost.

---

From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 16:23:13 +0000

>"Katharine"? I can't, and I don't think Severian could either.

What language are they speaking?

I always thought of it as future Spanish, in which case there might be
more of a difference between, say, Caterina and Katarina (the latter being
a foreign name).

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 22:24:33 +0000

> dark, Sev's mother must have been dark also (is that valid 

It is, at least among historical humanity. Dark hair is dominant over 
light, with red incompletely recessive to dark and incompletely dominant 
over light. Of course observed expression is subject to length and 
summer bleaching, though in the time of Urth, you'd need much greater 
exposure to sun for the latter; sailors and fishermen on the water for 
most of each day might qualify, as might people working near 
still-functional lightning-powered machinery, or in well-lit galleries 
of paintings, or making frequent flyer trips above the clouds and ground 
clutter.

You'll need to track eye color as well as well, dark eyes are likewise 
dominant over light, with exotics like violet and hazel similar in role 
to red.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 22:33:07 +0000

> more of a difference between, say, Caterina and Katarina (the latter being

Possible; what is "G.W."'s reasoning for using Latin in the text, again?
The passage where the ambiguity of English is ridiculed indicates they 
aren't speaking English, nor the similarly ambiguous Hebrew, nor 
Chinese-descended logograms to write with.

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 03:25:12 +0000

I concur with others who always felt Severian asks about a dark haired woman 
because his own hair is dark and Ouen is fair.

Roy writes:

>Others have speculated >that the maid was a khaibit, which may be so. If 
>true, then the woman for whom she was a >khaibit was likely Ouen's 
>Catherine.

The maid playing St. Katharine doesn't change appearance year to year in 
Severian's memory, which I think suggests she is making use of a kaibit 
rather than her being one.  Can her unchanging appearance be ignored?  This 
maid is described as being of armiger height.  If she was the kaibit of an 
exultant wouldn't she be exultant height?  I know some argue the blood 
transfer is what increases height but that is non-text speculation.  I do 
see some evidence that a kaibit is the twin of her mistress but the blood 
donation causes a hollow cheeked look.

I agree with Thalassocrat that we are supposed to see an echo of Severian's 
mother in Cyriaca.  There is a good chance they were both ex-Pelerines.  
Cyriaca was sentenced to die for the crime of cuckolding a high official; 
perhaps Severian's mother also?  Who was the dark haired woman with a livd 
face in the coffin in the first chapter?  I think the only two "pale gowns" 
in the story belong to the woman in the coffin and the woman Severian sees 
on the Path of Air.

I had considered that whoever was in the coffin had played St. Katherine for 
years and then was replaced after her death.  But when Severian participates 
in the mock execution, he freezes, and the maid cooly prompts him to 
continue as though she was very familiar with the ritual.  For these reasons 
I've felt that the maid is the real Catherine and it is a kaibit in the 
coffin.

Thea's heart shaped face has a sharp chin that matches Severian's, but so 
would Thecla's triangular face.  Are hollow cheeks an issue here?

-bsharp

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 07:26:29 +0000

bsharp wrote:
>exultant wouldn't she be exultant height?

I know of no examples in the books of any class other than exultants having
khaibits. The maid who played Holy Katharine was not as tall as Thecla. The
other women who are presumed to be khaibits -- the whores at the House
Azure -- were likewise not so tall as their originals.

Severian believed (or at least conveyed the impression of belief) that his
mother was tortured to death when he was very young. That a dead woman could
or would make an appearance, unchanged, from year to year is no less
remarkable than that a khaibit should do it.

-Roy

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 23:32:14 +0000

> remarkable than that a khaibit should do it.

An sufficiently wealthy exultant lady could have a series of khaibits, 
each one sustaining her youth and beauty for a few years, then replaced 
by another, newer one. Thus Holy Katharine could be played by a 
succession of clones, each one serving for a few years before being 
replaced by one that much younger, so that the onlookers who only see 
"her" for a few minutes each year notice no particular difference in age.

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:05:50 +0000

Roy writes

>remarkable than that a khaibit should do it.

I'm not the first to consider that Severian's mother did not die shortly 
after his birth as most torturers' mothers did. My conjecture that armigers 
might use kaibits comes from the sketchy evidence of Cyriaca's preserved 
appearance and the Pelagia-Pega pairing.  I was foolish to forget the 
kaibits in the House Azure (at least Thecla's) are shorter than their 
mistresses.  Making Ouen's Catherine an exultant nicely explains Severian's 
dark hair, pale skin and height (Jolenta/Severa's height also?).

I just can't ignore the circular connection between four characters:  The 
woman in the coffin has dark hair and a pale gown.  The woman on the Path of 
Air ("Carina" in the Play) has dark hair, a pale gown, a dark (olive) 
complexion) and an oval face (like Pelerines) which tears at his heart.  The 
maid who plays Katharine has a dark complexion, a face like a pool of still 
water (a mirror?  oval?).  Valeria has dark hair and a face that tears at 
Severian's heart.  Valeria and the maid are of armigette height; we don't 
know the height of the other two mystery women.

So, perhaps this scenario works:  Exultant Catherine, with a dark, oval 
face, runs from the Pelerines, hooks up with Ouen and then is locked up in 
the Citadel.  Her kaibit is forced to remain in the Citadel and perform as 
Saint Katharine. The kaibit becomes married to an armiger in a tower off the 
Atrium of Time and produces Valeria.  After giving birth to twins, Catherine 
manages to escape her cell (with the help of an apprentice?) and travel the 
catacombs to the Atrium of Time where she is able to escape to the future 
using a time portal and the Path of Air.  However, she is forced to return 
the way she came and is given back to the torturers twenty years later where 
her sentence (Allowin's necklace?) is carried out just before Chapter 1 of 
Shadow opens.

Unfortunately, if Catherine is an exultant it excludes Cyriaca from being 
her sister, and thus Agia and Agilus from being Severian's cousins. But, 
what the heck. Maybe someone can reconcile all this stuff. Someday.

-bsharp

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 05:54:29 +0000

bsharp wrote:
>However, she [Catherine] is forced to return

I think it would be rather strange that the torture and death of a woman who
looked just like the maid who annually played Holy Katharine would have gone
unnoticed and unmentioned by Severian and every other member of the guild.
Besides, the torturers buried their "clients in the lower reaches of the
necropolis". The woman whose body was taken by Vodalus was buried higher up
the hill, among the statuary.

>her sister,

Not necessarily. They might still have been half-sisters.

> and thus Agia and Agilus from being Severian's cousins.

I just don't see any text-based connection that links Cyriaca with the
twins, but there are some things that weigh against a connection. Cyriaca
was apparently a postulant traveling in the southern part of the country
with the Pelerines at her time of menarche. Sometime in her last year with
them before making her final commitment, she ran away from the order (sound
familiar?) and went home. The Pelerine outfit she wore to the archon's party
still fit her, so she must have been full grown when she left the order. So
she must have spent several years with them.

I don't think she had the time, motive or opportunity to have ever owned and
operated a rag shop in the slums of Nessus. But, more importantly, Agia said
that their mother had "bequeathed" the shop to the twins. I take that to
mean that their mother was dead.

-Roy