{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4730", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4730, "subject": "The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "messages": 26, "voices": 10, "first": "2006-10-15T20:26:01+00:00", "last": "2006-10-19T04:17:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<45329959.90409@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jesper Svedberg", "address": "jsvedberg at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-15T20:26:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just found this web site:\n\nhttp://www.doctorisland.com/\n\nHas anyone heard of this project before? I bit of googling brings up \nthat it's a short film of about 20 minutes. There's no mention of when \nit will be released, but they have apparently shot most of it already \nand is now in a post production phase.\n\nI was a bit surprised when I found it, since I hadn't heard anything \nabout it before, but the stills on their homepage definitely look \nimpressive and professional, so I really hope that we will actually see \nthe finished product some time.\n\n\n // Jesper" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "peter heyneman", "address": "pheyneman at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T13:49:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<45329959.90409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's excellent.\nI always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most \naccessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych of \nshort films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more.\n\n--p" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jesper Svedberg \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie\nDate: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:26:01 +0200\n\nI just found this web site:\n\nhttp://www.doctorisland.com/\n\nHas anyone heard of this project before? I bit of googling brings up\nthat it's a short film of about 20 minutes. There's no mention of when\nit will be released, but they have apparently shot most of it already\nand is now in a post production phase.\n\nI was a bit surprised when I found it, since I hadn't heard anything\nabout it before, but the stills on their homepage definitely look\nimpressive and professional, so I really hope that we will actually see\nthe finished product some time.\n\n\n // Jesper\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kurt Schwind", "address": "kurt.schwind at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T13:55:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You think that that was more accessible than say Wizard Knight?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/16/06, peter heyneman wrote:\nThat's excellent.\nI always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most\naccessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych of\nshort films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more.\n\n--p" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Jesper Svedberg \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie\nDate: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:26:01 +0200\n\nI just found this web site:\n\nhttp://www.doctorisland.com/\n\nHas anyone heard of this project before? I bit of googling brings up\nthat it's a short film of about 20 minutes. There's no mention of when\nit will be released, but they have apparently shot most of it already\nand is now in a post production phase.\n\nI was a bit surprised when I found it, since I hadn't heard anything\nabout it before, but the stills on their homepage definitely look\nimpressive and professional, so I really hope that we will actually see\nthe finished product some time.\n\n\n // Jesper\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.5.6.2.20061016150037.04bdab08@ukg.co.uk>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-10-16T14:02:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 14:49 16/10/2006, you wrote:\nThat's excellent.\nI always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the \nmost accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating \ntriptych of short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and \nthey'll make two more.\n--p" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to forget \"Death of the Island Doctor\"!\n\nMo" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "peter heyneman", "address": "pheyneman at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T14:19:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In terms of translation to pure visuals, definitely. WK, like most of his \nbooks, has so much shifty narrator business and perspective-skewing \nmysterious detail-dropping that turning it into a movie would be almost \nimpossible to do right--it'd lose much of its quality and become another dry \nSword and Sorcery tale. His short stories, especially from that era, rely \nless on the voice and more on the image.\n\nIn terms of appeal to 15 year old WOW players, I agree Wizard/Knight is \nperfect.\n\n--p" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Kurt Schwind\" \nReply-To: kurt at slithytoves.org,The Urth Mailing List \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie\nDate: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 08:55:47 -0500\n\nYou think that that was more accessible than say Wizard Knight?\n\nOn 10/16/06, peter heyneman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's excellent.\nI always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most\naccessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych \n of\nshort films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more.\n\n--p" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Jesper Svedberg \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie\nDate: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:26:01 +0200\n\nI just found this web site:\n\nhttp://www.doctorisland.com/\n\nHas anyone heard of this project before? I bit of googling brings up\nthat it's a short film of about 20 minutes. There's no mention of when\nit will be released, but they have apparently shot most of it already\nand is now in a post production phase.\n\nI was a bit surprised when I found it, since I hadn't heard anything\nabout it before, but the stills on their homepage definitely look\nimpressive and professional, so I really hope that we will actually see\nthe finished product some time.\n\n\n // Jesper\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kurt Schwind", "address": "kurt.schwind at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T14:44:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was just thinking that we get a lot of shifty narration from the\nDeath/Island/Dr. stories too. And for a Novel, WK is a lot more\nstraight-forward (imo) than Latro. But I'll agree, if it were made\ninto a movie they'd drop all the things that make reading GW so great.\n\nThe main reason I read GW is because he doesn't treat his readers like\nidiots. Hollywood, on the other hand, nearly always does. Not\nexactly a good match." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/16/06, peter heyneman wrote:\nIn terms of translation to pure visuals, definitely. WK, like most of his\nbooks, has so much shifty narrator business and perspective-skewing\nmysterious detail-dropping that turning it into a movie would be almost\nimpossible to do right--it'd lose much of its quality and become another dry\nSword and Sorcery tale. His short stories, especially from that era, rely\nless on the voice and more on the image.\n\nIn terms of appeal to 15 year old WOW players, I agree Wizard/Knight is\nperfect.\n\n--p" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Kurt Schwind\" \nReply-To: kurt at slithytoves.org,The Urth Mailing List \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie\nDate: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 08:55:47 -0500\n\nYou think that that was more accessible than say Wizard Knight?\n\nOn 10/16/06, peter heyneman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's excellent.\nI always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most\naccessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych\n of\nshort films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more.\n\n--p" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: Jesper Svedberg \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie\nDate: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:26:01 +0200\n\nI just found this web site:\n\nhttp://www.doctorisland.com/\n\nHas anyone heard of this project before? I bit of googling brings up\nthat it's a short film of about 20 minutes. There's no mention of when\nit will be released, but they have apparently shot most of it already\nand is now in a post production phase.\n\nI was a bit surprised when I found it, since I hadn't heard anything\nabout it before, but the stills on their homepage definitely look\nimpressive and professional, so I really hope that we will actually see\nthe finished product some time.\n\n\n // Jesper\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10610161655.AA04582@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T16:55:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most\naccessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych of\nshort films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of\nunderstanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most\ndisturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass audience\nwould make of it.\n\n(This leads me to wonder if I would dislike other Wolfe stories as much, if\nonly I could understand them.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200610161300.28204.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-10-16T17:00:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<10610161655.AA04582@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Monday 16 October 2006 12:55, David DiGiacomo wrote:\nI always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most\naccessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych\nof short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two\nmore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of\nunderstanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most\ndisturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass audience\nwould make of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive? " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kurt Schwind", "address": "kurt.schwind at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T17:14:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<200610161300.28204.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/16/06, Daniel D Jones wrote:\nOn Monday 16 October 2006 12:55, David DiGiacomo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most\naccessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych\nof short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two\nmore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of\nunderstanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most\ndisturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass audience\nwould make of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in\nthere, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books.\nHeck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find\noffensive David?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Kurt Schwind \nhttp://kurt.slithytoves.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10610161738.AA05285@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T17:38:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in\nthere, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books.\nHeck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find\noffensive David?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, blatant misogyny." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.5.6.2.20061016210527.0593b008@ukg.co.uk>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-10-16T20:12:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<10610161738.AA05285@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At 18:38 16/10/2006, you wrote:\nCare to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in\nthere, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books.\nHeck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find\noffensive David?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, blatant misogyny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think a reader dead set on avoiding misogyny would have to avoid \nquite a lot of Wolfe's work. In my case it's something I put up with \nfor the sake of the rest of the writing, but it does make me feel \nuncomfortable.\n\nHe's far from the only SF writer with whom that's the case, of course.\n\nMo" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kurt Schwind", "address": "kurt.schwind at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T20:20:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.5.6.2.20061016210527.0593b008@ukg.co.uk>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/16/06, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:\nAt 18:38 16/10/2006, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in\nthere, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books.\nHeck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find\noffensive David?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, blatant misogyny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think a reader dead set on avoiding misogyny would have to avoid\nquite a lot of Wolfe's work. In my case it's something I put up with\nfor the sake of the rest of the writing, but it does make me feel\nuncomfortable.\n\nHe's far from the only SF writer with whom that's the case, of course.\n\nMo\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T22:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 16, 2006, at 10:19 AM, peter heyneman wrote:\nIn terms of translation to pure visuals, definitely. WK, like most \nof his\nbooks, has so much shifty narrator business and perspective-skewing\nmysterious detail-dropping that turning it into a movie would be \nalmost\nimpossible to do right--it'd lose much of its quality and become \nanother dry\nSword and Sorcery tale. His short stories, especially from that \nera, rely\nless on the voice and more on the image.\n\nIn terms of appeal to 15 year old WOW players, I agree Wizard/ \nKnight is\nperfect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My vote is for Free Live Free as the best Gene Wolfe story to be made \ninto a hugely critically successful film that is a flop at the box \noffice but becomes an incredible cult hit as internet forums and \nmailing lists being to dissect it and use screenshots in various \nmemes, etc." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061016230920.38422.qmail@web54410.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T23:09:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There Are Doors, an understated, observed piece by Steven Soderbergh. Has a Gattaca-like path to acceptance. I think TaD has the least amount of machination and hidden meaning/plot of the Wolfe canon (that I've read) and would thus be the most easily translated to film.\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Transentient \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Monday, October 16, 2006 5:05:14 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 16, 2006, at 10:19 AM, peter heyneman wrote:\nIn terms of translation to pure visuals, definitely. WK, like most \nof his\nbooks, has so much shifty narrator business and perspective-skewing\nmysterious detail-dropping that turning it into a movie would be \nalmost\nimpossible to do right--it'd lose much of its quality and become \nanother dry\nSword and Sorcery tale. His short stories, especially from that \nera, rely\nless on the voice and more on the image.\n\nIn terms of appeal to 15 year old WOW players, I agree Wizard/ \nKnight is\nperfect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My vote is for Free Live Free as the best Gene Wolfe story to be made \ninto a hugely critically successful film that is a flop at the box \noffice but becomes an incredible cult hit as internet forums and \nmailing lists being to dissect it and use screenshots in various \nmemes, etc." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2006-10-17T01:32:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<10610161738.AA05285@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, David DiGiacomo wrote:\nI agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of\nunderstanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most\ndisturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass audience\nwould make of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, blatant misogyny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, _A Boy and His Dog_ got made into a movie...\n\nDavid Duffy," } ] }, { "message_id": "<200610162232.07633.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-10-17T02:32:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<10610161738.AA05285@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote:\nCare to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in\nthere, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books.\nHeck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find\noffensive David?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, blatant misogyny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? If the \nformer, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if you take into \naccount that the story was published in 1973. It would be a bit of an \nunderstatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of Diane's murder as \nunimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as misogyny. I can certainly see \nwhy those events would be offensive, but that's part of what makes the story \nso forceful. But I don't think that describing offensive events makes a \nstory itself offensive, unless you believe that the moral or theme of the \nstory somehow supports or lauds those events." } ] }, { "message_id": "<45344549.60600@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-17T02:51:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<200610162232.07633.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:\nOn Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in\nthere, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books.\nHeck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find\noffensive David?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, blatant misogyny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? If the \nformer, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if you take into \naccount that the story was published in 1973. It would be a bit of an \nunderstatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of Diane's murder as \nunimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as misogyny. I can certainly see \nwhy those events would be offensive, but that's part of what makes the story \nso forceful. But I don't think that describing offensive events makes a \nstory itself offensive, unless you believe that the moral or theme of the \nstory somehow supports or lauds those events." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist \ncharacters and situations in his stories." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<45344583.8050202@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-17T02:52:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Duffy wrote:\nOn Mon, 16 Oct 2006, David DiGiacomo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of\nunderstanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most\ndisturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass audience\nwould make of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, blatant misogyny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, _A Boy and His Dog_ got made into a movie..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mez Smith was an equal member of The Committee, and Quilla is both a \nwilling exploiter of her sex and the rescuer of the nominal hero. They \nalso have the essential conversation about a non-men subject required \nfor a sufficiently feminist film." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.5.6.2.20061017095507.02fc2a18@ukg.co.uk>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-10-17T09:01:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<45344583.8050202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:52 17/10/2006, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nMez Smith was an equal member of The Committee, and Quilla is both a \nwilling exploiter of her sex and the rescuer of the nominal hero. \nThey also have the essential conversation about a non-men subject \nrequired for a sufficiently feminist film." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mm, although I suspect that's in the category of \"Last movie I went \nto see was Alien... the two women in it talk to each other about the monster.\"\n\nMo" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200610170720.21725.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-10-17T11:20:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<45344549.60600@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 16 October 2006 22:51, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDaniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in\nthere, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books.\nHeck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find\noffensive David?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Oh, blatant misogyny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? If\nthe former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if you\ntake into account that the story was published in 1973. It would be a\nbit of an understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of Diane's\nmurder as unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as misogyny. I can\ncertainly see why those events would be offensive, but that's part of\nwhat makes the story so forceful. But I don't think that describing\noffensive events makes a story itself offensive, unless you believe that\nthe moral or theme of the story somehow supports or lauds those events." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist\ncharacters and situations in his stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and situations \nin his." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4534FDE3.7000208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-17T15:59:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<200610170720.21725.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:\nOn Monday 16 October 2006 22:51, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in\nthere, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books.\nHeck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find\noffensive David?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Oh, blatant misogyny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? If\nthe former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if you\ntake into account that the story was published in 1973. It would be a\nbit of an understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of Diane's\nmurder as unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as misogyny. I can\ncertainly see why those events would be offensive, but that's part of\nwhat makes the story so forceful. But I don't think that describing\noffensive events makes a story itself offensive, unless you believe that\nthe moral or theme of the story somehow supports or lauds those events." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist\ncharacters and situations in his stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and situations \nin his." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And he was himself an admitted and practicing racist." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4534FEA4.4050701@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-17T16:02:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.5.6.2.20061017095507.02fc2a18@ukg.co.uk>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:\nAt 03:52 17/10/2006, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mez Smith was an equal member of The Committee, and Quilla is both a \nwilling exploiter of her sex and the rescuer of the nominal hero. \nThey also have the essential conversation about a non-men subject \nrequired for a sufficiently feminist film." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mm, although I suspect that's in the category of \"Last movie I went \nto see was Alien... the two women in it talk to each other about the monster.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That counts; what they have to say can be considered relevant without \nthe involvement of a man to make it so." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200610171206.34675.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-10-17T16:06:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<4534FDE3.7000208@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 17 October 2006 11:59, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDaniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Monday 16 October 2006 22:51, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in\nthere, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books.\nHeck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find\noffensive David?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Oh, blatant misogyny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? \nIf the former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if\nyou take into account that the story was published in 1973. It would\nbe a bit of an understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of\nDiane's murder as unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as\nmisogyny. I can certainly see why those events would be offensive, but\nthat's part of what makes the story so forceful. But I don't think\nthat describing offensive events makes a story itself offensive, unless\nyou believe that the moral or theme of the story somehow supports or\nlauds those events." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist\ncharacters and situations in his stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and\nsituations in his." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And he was himself an admitted and practicing racist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which, true or not, doesn't at all change the fact that his stories are \npowerful arguments against racism." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4535BED0.2060309@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-18T05:42:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<200610171206.34675.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:\nOn Tuesday 17 October 2006 11:59, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Monday 16 October 2006 22:51, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in\nthere, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books.\nHeck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find\noffensive David?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Oh, blatant misogyny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? \nIf the former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if\nyou take into account that the story was published in 1973. It would\nbe a bit of an understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of\nDiane's murder as unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as\nmisogyny. I can certainly see why those events would be offensive, but\nthat's part of what makes the story so forceful. But I don't think\nthat describing offensive events makes a story itself offensive, unless\nyou believe that the moral or theme of the story somehow supports or\nlauds those events." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist\ncharacters and situations in his stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and\nsituations in his." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And he was himself an admitted and practicing racist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which, true or not, doesn't at all change the fact that his stories are \npowerful arguments against racism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, I was just playing along with the red herring theme. Twain \nwrote about his own society, in which esentially everyone was a racist, \nlargely in a time when racism was enshrined as a divinely and legally \nordained fact of life, so of course there were lots of racist characters \nand situations. Wolfe doesn't have this excuse, not that he really needs \none." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200610180757.04689.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-10-18T11:57:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<4535BED0.2060309@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 18 October 2006 01:42, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDaniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tuesday 17 October 2006 11:59, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist\ncharacters and situations in his stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and\nsituations in his." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And he was himself an admitted and practicing racist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Which, true or not, doesn't at all change the fact that his stories are\npowerful arguments against racism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree, I was just playing along with the red herring theme. Twain\nwrote about his own society, in which esentially everyone was a racist,\nlargely in a time when racism was enshrined as a divinely and legally\nordained fact of life, so of course there were lots of racist characters\nand situations. Wolfe doesn't have this excuse, not that he really needs\none." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Death of Doctor Island was published in 1973. You don't think misogyny \nwas common then? Wolfe may use fictional environments but that doesn't at \nall mean that his works don't contain lessons and commentary applicable to \nthe real one." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4536FC51.70408@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-19T04:17:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie", "in_reply_to": "<200610180757.04689.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:\nOn Wednesday 18 October 2006 01:42, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tuesday 17 October 2006 11:59, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist\ncharacters and situations in his stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and\nsituations in his." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And he was himself an admitted and practicing racist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Which, true or not, doesn't at all change the fact that his stories are\npowerful arguments against racism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree, I was just playing along with the red herring theme. Twain\nwrote about his own society, in which esentially everyone was a racist,\nlargely in a time when racism was enshrined as a divinely and legally\nordained fact of life, so of course there were lots of racist characters\nand situations. Wolfe doesn't have this excuse, not that he really needs\none." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Death of Doctor Island was published in 1973. You don't think misogyny \nwas common then? Wolfe may use fictional environments but that doesn't at \nall mean that his works don't contain lessons and commentary applicable to \nthe real one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "misogyny isn't the same thing as sexism" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }