Subject: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie

From: Jesper Svedberg <jsvedberg at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:26:01 +0000

I just found this web site:

http://www.doctorisland.com/

Has anyone heard of this project before? I bit of googling brings up 
that it's a short film of about 20 minutes. There's no mention of when 
it will be released, but they have apparently shot most of it already 
and is now in a post production phase.

I was a bit surprised when I found it, since I hadn't heard anything 
about it before, but the stills on their homepage definitely look 
impressive and professional, so I really hope that we will actually see 
the finished product some time.

   // Jesper

---

From: peter heyneman <pheyneman at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:49:20 +0000

That's excellent.
I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most 
accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych  of 
short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more.

--p

>From: Jesper Svedberg <jsvedberg at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>To: urth at lists.urth.net
>Subject: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie
>Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:26:01 +0200
>
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---

From: Kurt Schwind <kurt.schwind at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:55:47 +0000

You think that that was more accessible than say Wizard Knight?

-- 
Kurt Schwind  <kurt at slithytoves.org>
http://kurt.slithytoves.org

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:02:10 +0000

At 14:49 16/10/2006, you wrote:
>That's excellent.
>I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the 
>most accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating 
>triptych  of short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and 
>they'll make two more.
>--p

Not to forget "Death of the Island Doctor"!

Mo

---

From: peter heyneman <pheyneman at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:19:47 +0000

In terms of translation to pure visuals, definitely. WK, like most of his 
books, has so much shifty narrator business and perspective-skewing 
mysterious detail-dropping that turning it into a movie would be almost 
impossible to do right--it'd lose much of its quality and become another dry 
Sword and Sorcery tale. His short stories, especially from that era, rely 
less on the voice and more on the image.

In terms of appeal to 15 year old WOW players, I agree Wizard/Knight is 
perfect.

--p

>From: "Kurt Schwind" <kurt.schwind at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: kurt at slithytoves.org,The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>Subject: Re: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie
>Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 08:55:47 -0500
>

---

From: Kurt Schwind <kurt.schwind at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:44:37 +0000

I was just thinking that we get a lot of shifty narration from the
Death/Island/Dr. stories too.  And for a Novel, WK is a lot more
straight-forward (imo) than Latro.  But I'll agree, if it were made
into a movie they'd drop all the things that make reading GW so great.

The main reason I read GW is because he doesn't treat his readers like
idiots.  Hollywood, on the other hand, nearly always does.  Not
exactly a good match.

---

From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:55:35 +0000

>short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more.

I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of
understanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most
disturbing and offensive stories.  I can't imagine what a mass audience
would make of it.

(This leads me to wonder if I would dislike other Wolfe stories as much, if
only I could understand them.)

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:00:27 +0000

On Monday 16 October 2006 12:55, David DiGiacomo wrote:
> >accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych
> > of short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two
> > more.
>

Care to expound on why you find it offensive?

---

From: Kurt Schwind <kurt.schwind at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:14:22 +0000

> Care to expound on why you find it offensive?

I was thinking the same thing.  I mean there is some violence in
there, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books.
Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist.  So what did you find
offensive David?

---

From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:38:32 +0000

>Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist.  So what did you find

Oh, blatant misogyny.

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 20:12:09 +0000

> >Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist.  So what did you find

I think a reader dead set on avoiding misogyny would have to avoid 
quite a lot of Wolfe's work. In my case it's something I put up with 
for the sake of the rest of the writing, but it does make me feel 
uncomfortable.

He's far from the only SF writer with whom that's the case, of course.

Mo

---

From: Kurt Schwind <kurt.schwind at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 20:20:59 +0000

Well said.

---

From: Transentient <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:05:14 +0000

> In terms of appeal to 15 year old WOW players, I agree Wizard/ 

My vote is for Free Live Free as the best Gene Wolfe story to be made  
into a hugely critically successful film that is a flop at the box  
office but becomes an incredible cult hit as internet forums and  
mailing lists being to dissect it and use screenshots in various  
memes, etc.

---

From: Nathan Spears <spearofsolomon at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 23:09:20 +0000

There Are Doors, an understated, observed piece by Steven Soderbergh.  Has a Gattaca-like path to acceptance.  I think TaD has the least amount of machination and hidden meaning/plot of the Wolfe canon (that I've read) and would thus be the most easily translated to film.

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 01:32:50 +0000

> >> Care to expound on why you find it offensive?

Well, _A Boy and His Dog_ got made into a movie...

David Duffy,

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 02:32:07 +0000

> >Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist.  So what did you find

Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story?  If the 
former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if you take into 
account that the story was published in 1973.  It would be a bit of an 
understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of Diane's murder as 
unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as misogyny.  I can certainly see 
why those events would be offensive, but that's part of what makes the story 
so forceful.  But I don't think that describing offensive events makes a 
story itself offensive, unless you believe that the moral or theme of the 
story somehow supports or lauds those events.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 02:51:53 +0000

> story somehow supports or lauds those events.

It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist 
characters and situations in his stories.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 02:52:51 +0000

> Well, _A Boy and His Dog_ got made into a movie...

Mez Smith was an equal member of The Committee, and Quilla is both a 
willing exploiter of her sex and the rescuer of the nominal hero. They 
also have the essential conversation about a non-men subject required 
for a sufficiently feminist film.

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:01:46 +0000

At 03:52 17/10/2006, Jeff Wilson wrote:
>willing exploiter of her sex and the rescuer of the nominal hero. 
>They also have the essential conversation about a non-men subject 
>required for a sufficiently feminist film.

Mm, although I suspect that's in the category of "Last movie I went 
to see was Alien... the two women in it talk to each other about the monster."

Mo

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:20:21 +0000

On Monday 16 October 2006 22:51, Jeff Wilson wrote:
> > Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story?  If
> > the former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if you
> > take into account that the story was published in 1973.  It would be a
> > bit of an understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of Diane's
> > murder as unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as misogyny.  I can
> > certainly see why those events would be offensive, but that's part of
> > what makes the story so forceful.  But I don't think that describing
> > offensive events makes a story itself offensive, unless you believe that
> > the moral or theme of the story somehow supports or lauds those events.
>

And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and situations 
in his.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:59:31 +0000

> And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and situations 

And he was himself an admitted and practicing racist.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:02:44 +0000

> to see was Alien... the two women in it talk to each other about the monster."

That counts; what they have to say can be considered relevant without 
the involvement of a man to make it so.

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:06:34 +0000

On Tuesday 17 October 2006 11:59, Jeff Wilson wrote:
> >>> Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? 
> >>> If the former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if
> >>> you take into account that the story was published in 1973.  It would
> >>> be a bit of an understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of
> >>> Diane's murder as unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as
> >>> misogyny.  I can certainly see why those events would be offensive, but
> >>> that's part of what makes the story so forceful.  But I don't think
> >>> that describing offensive events makes a story itself offensive, unless
> >>> you believe that the moral or theme of the story somehow supports or
> >>> lauds those events.
> >>
> > And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and
> > situations in his.
>

Which, true or not, doesn't at all change the fact that his stories are 
powerful arguments against racism.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:42:40 +0000

> powerful arguments against racism.

I agree, I was just playing along with the red herring theme. Twain 
wrote about his own society, in which esentially everyone was a racist, 
largely in a time when racism was enshrined as a divinely and legally 
ordained fact of life, so of course there were lots of racist characters 
and situations. Wolfe doesn't have this excuse, not that he really needs 
one.

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:57:03 +0000

> and situations. Wolfe doesn't have this excuse, not that he really needs

The Death of Doctor Island was published in 1973.  You don't think misogyny 
was common then?  Wolfe may use fictional environments but that doesn't at 
all mean that his works don't contain lessons and commentary applicable to 
the real one.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:17:21 +0000

> all mean that his works don't contain lessons and commentary applicable to 

misogyny isn't the same thing as sexism