The Death of Doctor Island Movie The Urth list — 26 messages, 10 voices, 15 Oct 2006 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4730 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== Jesper Svedberg — 15 Oct 2006, 20:26 I just found this web site: http://www.doctorisland.com/ Has anyone heard of this project before? I bit of googling brings up that it's a short film of about 20 minutes. There's no mention of when it will be released, but they have apparently shot most of it already and is now in a post production phase. I was a bit surprised when I found it, since I hadn't heard anything about it before, but the stills on their homepage definitely look impressive and professional, so I really hope that we will actually see the finished product some time. // Jesper ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ peter heyneman — 16 Oct 2006, 13:49 in reply to Jesper Svedberg That's excellent. I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych of short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more. --p > From: Jesper Svedberg > Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List > To: urth at lists.urth.net > Subject: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie > Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:26:01 +0200 > > I just found this web site: > > http://www.doctorisland.com/ > > Has anyone heard of this project before? I bit of googling brings up > that it's a short film of about 20 minutes. There's no mention of when > it will be released, but they have apparently shot most of it already > and is now in a post production phase. > > I was a bit surprised when I found it, since I hadn't heard anything > about it before, but the stills on their homepage definitely look > impressive and professional, so I really hope that we will actually see > the finished product some time. > > > // Jesper > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kurt Schwind — 16 Oct 2006, 13:55 in reply to peter heyneman You think that that was more accessible than say Wizard Knight? > On 10/16/06, peter heyneman wrote: > That's excellent. > I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most > accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych of > short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more. > > --p > > From: Jesper Svedberg > > Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List > > To: urth at lists.urth.net > > Subject: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie > > Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:26:01 +0200 > > > > I just found this web site: > > > > http://www.doctorisland.com/ > > > > Has anyone heard of this project before? I bit of googling brings up > > that it's a short film of about 20 minutes. There's no mention of when > > it will be released, but they have apparently shot most of it already > > and is now in a post production phase. > > > > I was a bit surprised when I found it, since I hadn't heard anything > > about it before, but the stills on their homepage definitely look > > impressive and professional, so I really hope that we will actually see > > the finished product some time. > > > > > > // Jesper > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mo Holkar / UKG — 16 Oct 2006, 14:02 in reply to peter heyneman > At 14:49 16/10/2006, you wrote: > That's excellent. > I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the > most accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating > triptych of short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and > they'll make two more. > --p Not to forget "Death of the Island Doctor"! Mo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ peter heyneman — 16 Oct 2006, 14:19 in reply to Kurt Schwind In terms of translation to pure visuals, definitely. WK, like most of his books, has so much shifty narrator business and perspective-skewing mysterious detail-dropping that turning it into a movie would be almost impossible to do right--it'd lose much of its quality and become another dry Sword and Sorcery tale. His short stories, especially from that era, rely less on the voice and more on the image. In terms of appeal to 15 year old WOW players, I agree Wizard/Knight is perfect. --p > From: "Kurt Schwind" > Reply-To: kurt at slithytoves.org,The Urth Mailing List > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Subject: Re: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie > Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 08:55:47 -0500 > > You think that that was more accessible than say Wizard Knight? > > On 10/16/06, peter heyneman wrote: > > That's excellent. > > I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most > > accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych > > of > > short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more. > > > > --p > > > From: Jesper Svedberg > > > Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List > > > To: urth at lists.urth.net > > > Subject: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie > > > Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:26:01 +0200 > > > > > > I just found this web site: > > > > > > http://www.doctorisland.com/ > > > > > > Has anyone heard of this project before? I bit of googling brings up > > > that it's a short film of about 20 minutes. There's no mention of when > > > it will be released, but they have apparently shot most of it already > > > and is now in a post production phase. > > > > > > I was a bit surprised when I found it, since I hadn't heard anything > > > about it before, but the stills on their homepage definitely look > > > impressive and professional, so I really hope that we will actually see > > > the finished product some time. > > > > > > > > > // Jesper > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kurt Schwind — 16 Oct 2006, 14:44 in reply to peter heyneman I was just thinking that we get a lot of shifty narration from the Death/Island/Dr. stories too. And for a Novel, WK is a lot more straight-forward (imo) than Latro. But I'll agree, if it were made into a movie they'd drop all the things that make reading GW so great. The main reason I read GW is because he doesn't treat his readers like idiots. Hollywood, on the other hand, nearly always does. Not exactly a good match. > On 10/16/06, peter heyneman wrote: > In terms of translation to pure visuals, definitely. WK, like most of his > books, has so much shifty narrator business and perspective-skewing > mysterious detail-dropping that turning it into a movie would be almost > impossible to do right--it'd lose much of its quality and become another dry > Sword and Sorcery tale. His short stories, especially from that era, rely > less on the voice and more on the image. > > In terms of appeal to 15 year old WOW players, I agree Wizard/Knight is > perfect. > > --p > > From: "Kurt Schwind" > > Reply-To: kurt at slithytoves.org,The Urth Mailing List > > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > > Subject: Re: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie > > Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 08:55:47 -0500 > > > > You think that that was more accessible than say Wizard Knight? > > > > On 10/16/06, peter heyneman wrote: > > > That's excellent. > > > I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most > > > accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych > > > of > > > short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more. > > > > > > --p > > > > From: Jesper Svedberg > > > > Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List > > > > To: urth at lists.urth.net > > > > Subject: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie > > > > Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:26:01 +0200 > > > > > > > > I just found this web site: > > > > > > > > http://www.doctorisland.com/ > > > > > > > > Has anyone heard of this project before? I bit of googling brings up > > > > that it's a short film of about 20 minutes. There's no mention of when > > > > it will be released, but they have apparently shot most of it already > > > > and is now in a post production phase. > > > > > > > > I was a bit surprised when I found it, since I hadn't heard anything > > > > about it before, but the stills on their homepage definitely look > > > > impressive and professional, so I really hope that we will actually see > > > > the finished product some time. > > > > > > > > > > > > // Jesper > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David DiGiacomo — 16 Oct 2006, 16:55 follows, by subject match Kurt Schwind > I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most > accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych of > short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two more. I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of understanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most disturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass audience would make of it. (This leads me to wonder if I would dislike other Wolfe stories as much, if only I could understand them.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Daniel D Jones — 16 Oct 2006, 17:00 in reply to David DiGiacomo > > On Monday 16 October 2006 12:55, David DiGiacomo wrote: > > I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most > > accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych > > of short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two > > more. > I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of > understanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most > disturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass audience > would make of it. Care to expound on why you find it offensive? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kurt Schwind — 16 Oct 2006, 17:14 in reply to Daniel D Jones > On 10/16/06, Daniel D Jones wrote: > On Monday 16 October 2006 12:55, David DiGiacomo wrote: > > > I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the most > > > accessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating triptych > > > of short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make two > > > more. > > I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of > > understanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most > > disturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass audience > > would make of it. > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in there, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books. Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find offensive David? -- Kurt Schwind http://kurt.slithytoves.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David DiGiacomo — 16 Oct 2006, 17:38 follows, by subject match Kurt Schwind > > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? > I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in > there, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books. > Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find > offensive David? Oh, blatant misogyny. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mo Holkar / UKG — 16 Oct 2006, 20:12 in reply to David DiGiacomo > > > At 18:38 16/10/2006, you wrote: > > > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? > > I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in > > there, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books. > > Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find > > offensive David? > Oh, blatant misogyny. I think a reader dead set on avoiding misogyny would have to avoid quite a lot of Wolfe's work. In my case it's something I put up with for the sake of the rest of the writing, but it does make me feel uncomfortable. He's far from the only SF writer with whom that's the case, of course. Mo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kurt Schwind — 16 Oct 2006, 20:20 in reply to Mo Holkar / UKG Well said. > On 10/16/06, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote: > At 18:38 16/10/2006, you wrote: > > > > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? > > > I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in > > > there, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books. > > > Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find > > > offensive David? > > Oh, blatant misogyny. > I think a reader dead set on avoiding misogyny would have to avoid > quite a lot of Wolfe's work. In my case it's something I put up with > for the sake of the rest of the writing, but it does make me feel > uncomfortable. > > He's far from the only SF writer with whom that's the case, of course. > > Mo > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Transentient — 16 Oct 2006, 22:05 in reply to peter heyneman > On Oct 16, 2006, at 10:19 AM, peter heyneman wrote: > In terms of translation to pure visuals, definitely. WK, like most > of his > books, has so much shifty narrator business and perspective-skewing > mysterious detail-dropping that turning it into a movie would be > almost > impossible to do right--it'd lose much of its quality and become > another dry > Sword and Sorcery tale. His short stories, especially from that > era, rely > less on the voice and more on the image. > > In terms of appeal to 15 year old WOW players, I agree Wizard/ > Knight is > perfect. My vote is for Free Live Free as the best Gene Wolfe story to be made into a hugely critically successful film that is a flop at the box office but becomes an incredible cult hit as internet forums and mailing lists being to dissect it and use screenshots in various memes, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nathan Spears — 16 Oct 2006, 23:09 follows, by subject match Transentient There Are Doors, an understated, observed piece by Steven Soderbergh. Has a Gattaca-like path to acceptance. I think TaD has the least amount of machination and hidden meaning/plot of the Wolfe canon (that I've read) and would thus be the most easily translated to film. ----- Original Message ---- From: Transentient To: The Urth Mailing List Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 5:05:14 PM Subject: Re: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie > On Oct 16, 2006, at 10:19 AM, peter heyneman wrote: > In terms of translation to pure visuals, definitely. WK, like most > of his > books, has so much shifty narrator business and perspective-skewing > mysterious detail-dropping that turning it into a movie would be > almost > impossible to do right--it'd lose much of its quality and become > another dry > Sword and Sorcery tale. His short stories, especially from that > era, rely > less on the voice and more on the image. > > In terms of appeal to 15 year old WOW players, I agree Wizard/ > Knight is > perfect. My vote is for Free Live Free as the best Gene Wolfe story to be made into a hugely critically successful film that is a flop at the box office but becomes an incredible cult hit as internet forums and mailing lists being to dissect it and use screenshots in various memes, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Duffy — 17 Oct 2006, 01:32 in reply to David DiGiacomo > On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, David DiGiacomo wrote: > I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of > understanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most > disturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass audience > would make of it. > > > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? > Oh, blatant misogyny. Well, _A Boy and His Dog_ got made into a movie... David Duffy, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Daniel D Jones — 17 Oct 2006, 02:32 in reply to David DiGiacomo > > > On Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote: > > > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? > > I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in > > there, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books. > > Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find > > offensive David? > Oh, blatant misogyny. Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? If the former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if you take into account that the story was published in 1973. It would be a bit of an understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of Diane's murder as unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as misogyny. I can certainly see why those events would be offensive, but that's part of what makes the story so forceful. But I don't think that describing offensive events makes a story itself offensive, unless you believe that the moral or theme of the story somehow supports or lauds those events. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 17 Oct 2006, 02:51 in reply to Daniel D Jones > Daniel D Jones wrote: > On Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote: > > > > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? > > > I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in > > > there, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books. > > > Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find > > > offensive David? > > Oh, blatant misogyny. > Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? If the > former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if you take into > account that the story was published in 1973. It would be a bit of an > understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of Diane's murder as > unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as misogyny. I can certainly see > why those events would be offensive, but that's part of what makes the story > so forceful. But I don't think that describing offensive events makes a > story itself offensive, unless you believe that the moral or theme of the > story somehow supports or lauds those events. It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist characters and situations in his stories. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 17 Oct 2006, 02:52 in reply to David Duffy > David Duffy wrote: > On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, David DiGiacomo wrote: > > I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of > > understanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most > > disturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass audience > > would make of it. > > > > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? > > Oh, blatant misogyny. > Well, _A Boy and His Dog_ got made into a movie... Mez Smith was an equal member of The Committee, and Quilla is both a willing exploiter of her sex and the rescuer of the nominal hero. They also have the essential conversation about a non-men subject required for a sufficiently feminist film. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mo Holkar / UKG — 17 Oct 2006, 09:01 in reply to Jeff Wilson > At 03:52 17/10/2006, Jeff Wilson wrote: > Mez Smith was an equal member of The Committee, and Quilla is both a > willing exploiter of her sex and the rescuer of the nominal hero. > They also have the essential conversation about a non-men subject > required for a sufficiently feminist film. Mm, although I suspect that's in the category of "Last movie I went to see was Alien... the two women in it talk to each other about the monster." Mo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Daniel D Jones — 17 Oct 2006, 11:20 in reply to Jeff Wilson > On Monday 16 October 2006 22:51, Jeff Wilson wrote: > Daniel D Jones wrote: > > On Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote: > > > > > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? > > > > I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in > > > > there, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books. > > > > Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find > > > > offensive David? > > > Oh, blatant misogyny. > > Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? If > > the former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if you > > take into account that the story was published in 1973. It would be a > > bit of an understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of Diane's > > murder as unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as misogyny. I can > > certainly see why those events would be offensive, but that's part of > > what makes the story so forceful. But I don't think that describing > > offensive events makes a story itself offensive, unless you believe that > > the moral or theme of the story somehow supports or lauds those events. > It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist > characters and situations in his stories. And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and situations in his. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 17 Oct 2006, 15:59 in reply to Daniel D Jones > Daniel D Jones wrote: > On Monday 16 October 2006 22:51, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > Daniel D Jones wrote: > > > On Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote: > > > > > > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? > > > > > I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in > > > > > there, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books. > > > > > Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find > > > > > offensive David? > > > > Oh, blatant misogyny. > > > Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? If > > > the former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if you > > > take into account that the story was published in 1973. It would be a > > > bit of an understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of Diane's > > > murder as unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as misogyny. I can > > > certainly see why those events would be offensive, but that's part of > > > what makes the story so forceful. But I don't think that describing > > > offensive events makes a story itself offensive, unless you believe that > > > the moral or theme of the story somehow supports or lauds those events. > > It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist > > characters and situations in his stories. > And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and situations > in his. And he was himself an admitted and practicing racist. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 17 Oct 2006, 16:02 in reply to Mo Holkar / UKG > Mo Holkar / UKG wrote: > At 03:52 17/10/2006, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > Mez Smith was an equal member of The Committee, and Quilla is both a > > willing exploiter of her sex and the rescuer of the nominal hero. > > They also have the essential conversation about a non-men subject > > required for a sufficiently feminist film. > Mm, although I suspect that's in the category of "Last movie I went > to see was Alien... the two women in it talk to each other about the monster." That counts; what they have to say can be considered relevant without the involvement of a man to make it so. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Daniel D Jones — 17 Oct 2006, 16:06 in reply to Jeff Wilson > On Tuesday 17 October 2006 11:59, Jeff Wilson wrote: > Daniel D Jones wrote: > > On Monday 16 October 2006 22:51, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > > Daniel D Jones wrote: > > > > On Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote: > > > > > > > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? > > > > > > I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in > > > > > > there, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books. > > > > > > Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find > > > > > > offensive David? > > > > > Oh, blatant misogyny. > > > > Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? > > > > If the former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if > > > > you take into account that the story was published in 1973. It would > > > > be a bit of an understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of > > > > Diane's murder as unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as > > > > misogyny. I can certainly see why those events would be offensive, but > > > > that's part of what makes the story so forceful. But I don't think > > > > that describing offensive events makes a story itself offensive, unless > > > > you believe that the moral or theme of the story somehow supports or > > > > lauds those events. > > > It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist > > > characters and situations in his stories. > > And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and > > situations in his. > And he was himself an admitted and practicing racist. Which, true or not, doesn't at all change the fact that his stories are powerful arguments against racism. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 18 Oct 2006, 05:42 in reply to Daniel D Jones > Daniel D Jones wrote: > On Tuesday 17 October 2006 11:59, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > Daniel D Jones wrote: > > > On Monday 16 October 2006 22:51, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > > > Daniel D Jones wrote: > > > > > On Monday 16 October 2006 13:38, David DiGiacomo wrote: > > > > > > > > Care to expound on why you find it offensive? > > > > > > > I was thinking the same thing. I mean there is some violence in > > > > > > > there, but nothing more than you'd find in any of his other books. > > > > > > > Heck, he had an executioner for a protaganist. So what did you find > > > > > > > offensive David? > > > > > > Oh, blatant misogyny. > > > > > Misogyny on the part of Wolfe or the part of characters in the story? > > > > > If the former, I'm not sure what you're referring to, particularly if > > > > > you take into account that the story was published in 1973. It would > > > > > be a bit of an understatement to refer to Dr. Island's dismissal of > > > > > Diane's murder as unimportant because it helped cure Ignacio as > > > > > misogyny. I can certainly see why those events would be offensive, but > > > > > that's part of what makes the story so forceful. But I don't think > > > > > that describing offensive events makes a story itself offensive, unless > > > > > you believe that the moral or theme of the story somehow supports or > > > > > lauds those events. > > > > It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist > > > > characters and situations in his stories. > > > And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and > > > situations in his. > > And he was himself an admitted and practicing racist. > Which, true or not, doesn't at all change the fact that his stories are > powerful arguments against racism. I agree, I was just playing along with the red herring theme. Twain wrote about his own society, in which esentially everyone was a racist, largely in a time when racism was enshrined as a divinely and legally ordained fact of life, so of course there were lots of racist characters and situations. Wolfe doesn't have this excuse, not that he really needs one. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Daniel D Jones — 18 Oct 2006, 11:57 in reply to Jeff Wilson > On Wednesday 18 October 2006 01:42, Jeff Wilson wrote: > Daniel D Jones wrote: > > On Tuesday 17 October 2006 11:59, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > > Daniel D Jones wrote: > > > > > It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist > > > > > characters and situations in his stories. > > > > And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and > > > > situations in his. > > > And he was himself an admitted and practicing racist. > > Which, true or not, doesn't at all change the fact that his stories are > > powerful arguments against racism. > I agree, I was just playing along with the red herring theme. Twain > wrote about his own society, in which esentially everyone was a racist, > largely in a time when racism was enshrined as a divinely and legally > ordained fact of life, so of course there were lots of racist characters > and situations. Wolfe doesn't have this excuse, not that he really needs > one. The Death of Doctor Island was published in 1973. You don't think misogyny was common then? Wolfe may use fictional environments but that doesn't at all mean that his works don't contain lessons and commentary applicable to the real one. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 19 Oct 2006, 04:17 in reply to Daniel D Jones > Daniel D Jones wrote: > On Wednesday 18 October 2006 01:42, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > Daniel D Jones wrote: > > > On Tuesday 17 October 2006 11:59, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > > > Daniel D Jones wrote: > > > > > > It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist > > > > > > characters and situations in his stories. > > > > > And Sam Clemons was really fond of including racist characters and > > > > > situations in his. > > > > And he was himself an admitted and practicing racist. > > > Which, true or not, doesn't at all change the fact that his stories are > > > powerful arguments against racism. > > I agree, I was just playing along with the red herring theme. Twain > > wrote about his own society, in which esentially everyone was a racist, > > largely in a time when racism was enshrined as a divinely and legally > > ordained fact of life, so of course there were lots of racist characters > > and situations. Wolfe doesn't have this excuse, not that he really needs > > one. > The Death of Doctor Island was published in 1973. You don't think misogyny > was common then? Wolfe may use fictional environments but that doesn't at > all mean that his works don't contain lessons and commentary applicable to > the real one. misogyny isn't the same thing as sexism -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------