{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4732", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4732, "subject": "urth Digest, Vol 26, Issue 12", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2006-10-16T19:25:17+00:00", "last": "2006-10-17T02:50:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<3B2AB615-41AD-4B46-B31A-485515ED6B37@ou.edu>", "from": { "name": "Kieran Mullen", "address": "kieran at ou.edu" }, "date": "2006-10-16T19:25:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) urth Digest, Vol 26, Issue 12", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 9\nDate: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:00:27 -0400\nFrom: Daniel D Jones \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <200610161300.28204.ddjones at riddlemaster.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Monday 16 October 2006 12:55, David DiGiacomo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the \nmost\naccessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating \ntriptych\nof short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make \ntwo\nmore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of\nunderstanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most\ndisturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass \naudience\nwould make of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not David, but I can write why I find the story disturbing: an \ninnocent young girl is brutally murdered in order to salvage one \nmentally disturbed adult male, drive an innocent boy catatonic, and \nmanifest the more useful subdominant personality in the boy. This \nis all based on some utilitarian calculus: the low probability that \nthe girl will be cured, the preference for the subdominant \npersonality in the boy, the chance that the man will be cured. It's \nthe cold sacrifice of one life to improve another's life. But I \nthink that's the type of death offered by Doctor Island, and this is \nthe point of the story.\n\nWhat if the Island is wrong in its prognosis? Is that much worse \nthan its being right?\n\nI'm not sure I'd call that offensive, but it is disturbing to me.\n\nKieran Mullen\n\n\nP.S. It's been a while since I read the story." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370610161238td456e23hfe8ecd00c2db3230@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-16T19:38:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) urth Digest, Vol 26, Issue 12", "in_reply_to": "<3B2AB615-41AD-4B46-B31A-485515ED6B37@ou.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll add: I think it's significant that the sacrificial victim was a girl\n-- innocent or otherwise. There's a strong violence-against-women\nquotient in Wolfe's work, and over time it's begun to disturb me\na bit. In this particular case, it's pretty egregious.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/16/06, Kieran Mullen wrote:\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 9\nDate: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:00:27 -0400\nFrom: Daniel D Jones \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Death of Doctor Island Movie\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <200610161300.28204.ddjones at riddlemaster.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Monday 16 October 2006 12:55, David DiGiacomo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I always thought that the trio of IDD, DrOfDI, and DofDrI was the\nmost\naccessible and visual of GWs works and would make an facinating\ntriptych\nof short films. Hopefully this will not be awful and they'll make\ntwo\nmore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of\nunderstanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most\ndisturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass\naudience\nwould make of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am not David, but I can write why I find the story disturbing: an\ninnocent young girl is brutally murdered in order to salvage one\nmentally disturbed adult male, drive an innocent boy catatonic, and\nmanifest the more useful subdominant personality in the boy. This\nis all based on some utilitarian calculus: the low probability that\nthe girl will be cured, the preference for the subdominant\npersonality in the boy, the chance that the man will be cured. It's\nthe cold sacrifice of one life to improve another's life. But I\nthink that's the type of death offered by Doctor Island, and this is\nthe point of the story.\n\nWhat if the Island is wrong in its prognosis? Is that much worse\nthan its being right?\n\nI'm not sure I'd call that offensive, but it is disturbing to me.\n\nKieran Mullen\n\n\nP.S. It's been a while since I read the story.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Yves Meynard", "address": "meynard at videotron.ca" }, "date": "2006-10-17T02:21:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) urth Digest, Vol 26, Issue 12", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370610161238td456e23hfe8ecd00c2db3230@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Kieran Mullen \n\n\nI am not David, but I can write why I find the story disturbing: an\ninnocent young girl is brutally murdered in order to salvage one\nmentally disturbed adult male, drive an innocent boy catatonic, and\nmanifest the more useful subdominant personality in the boy. This\nis all based on some utilitarian calculus: the low probability that\nthe girl will be cured, the preference for the subdominant\npersonality in the boy, the chance that the man will be cured. It's\nthe cold sacrifice of one life to improve another's life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But aren't we meant to find this \"therapy\" profoundly abhorrent? The \nstory is shocking, disturbing, because as SF readers we have a built- \nin expectation that wondrous future technology will embody progress \nand good. Wolfe gives us a situation where this is not at all true in \nfinal analysis (no pun intended). I would have to re-read the story, \nbut I seem to remember Dr. Island mentions that Freudianism applies \nequally well to machines--which I think is in fact the author's \ncondemnation of any school of psychology that treats people as if \nthey were machines." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure I'd call that offensive, but it is disturbing to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is indeed offensive, if you think Wolfe agrees with Dr Island; I \npersonally doubt that he does.\n\nYves Meynard" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200610162250.59873.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-10-17T02:50:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) urth Digest, Vol 26, Issue 12", "in_reply_to": "<3B2AB615-41AD-4B46-B31A-485515ED6B37@ou.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Monday 16 October 2006 15:25, Kieran Mullen wrote:\nI agree that The Death of Doctor Island is accessible in terms of\nunderstanding the plot, but I also find it to be one of Wolfe's most\ndisturbing and offensive stories. I can't imagine what a mass\naudience\nwould make of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Care to expound on why you find it offensive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am not David, but I can write why I find the story disturbing: an\ninnocent young girl is brutally murdered in order to salvage one\nmentally disturbed adult male, drive an innocent boy catatonic, and\nmanifest the more useful subdominant personality in the boy. This\nis all based on some utilitarian calculus: the low probability that\nthe girl will be cured, the preference for the subdominant\npersonality in the boy, the chance that the man will be cured. It's\nthe cold sacrifice of one life to improve another's life. But I\nthink that's the type of death offered by Doctor Island, and this is\nthe point of the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No question that the story is disturbing. If the story doesn't disturb you, \nthen you have serious problems. But there's a great deal of difference \nbetween calling a story disturbing and calling it offensive. The story is \nmeant to disturb. That's it's whole point and purpose. And it succeeds \nmasterfully. But I disagree that that makes the story offensive. If a story \ndoesn't move you in some way, is it worth investing the time to read?\n\nI first read the story many years ago while in high school. It was the first \nthing I'd ever read by Wolfe, although I didn't realize that until recently. \nI only recently picked up a copy of IoDD&OS&OS. When I started reading DoDI, \nI literally jumped out of bed and shook the book in my wife's face. \"This is \nit! This is it!\" I then had to explain that I'd read the story some 25 \nyears ago but had had no idea who'd written it. I couldn't remember the \ndetails of the events but it was one of the most powerful, most disturbing \nstories I'd ever read and I couldn't wait to read it again. It did not \ndisappoint on the second reading.\n\nIt's not often that a book or story literally gives me cold chills but this \nstory did. Both times. It's incredibly disturbing and incredibly powerful. \nBut that doesn't make it offensive. Quite the opposite." } ] } ] }