Subject: (urth) Wolfe: Misogynist or Realist?

From: Jack Redelfs <jackredelfs at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:32:57 +0000

Vis-a-vis "The Death of Doctor Island," webster.com gives one
definition of offensive thusly: "giving painful or unpleasant sensations."
So, it appears that a work can be deemed offensive without any
question of the authors personal motivations or opinions.

>It's just that Wolfe seems to be really fond of including misogynist
>characters and situations in his stories.

I think that's simply his brutal realism. I never read an author who was
less interested in easy escapes and happy endings. His characters
suffer, and they suffer a lot. Look at history and the world around you.
Is misogyny the exception or the rule in human relations? The bad
guys do very bad things to women, and they usually get away with it.

This view of the world is cognizant with Wolfe's catholicism. The
devil rules the world of flesh, and God rules the world of spirit.
It makes his stories more gripping and his more characters more
real. When I read about characters that float through life as though
in a cloud, without any pain, I wonder "why should I care?"
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From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:50:25 +0000

> question of the authors personal motivations or opinions.

It seems to me that there is an unavoidable connotation of disapproval and an 
associated blame or culpability when one describes an action (or the result 
of an action) as offensive.

> guys do very bad things to women, and they usually get away with it.

Agreed.  The reader is supposed to be offended by the actions of certain 
characters or the environment in which some characters are immersed.  

> in a cloud, without any pain, I wonder "why should I care?"

Agreed again.  Literature is driven by conflict.  It's one of it's most 
fundamental characteristics.  Without conflict, you don't have a story.  
Wolfe is simply very good at creating powerful, visceral conflicts that 
affect our most primitive emotions.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:15:25 +0000

A distinction here.

Most kinds of stories, and certainly the kind Wolfe writes,
need to have people in them who do bad things -- even
unambiguously, horribly bad things.

The question in my mind is what attitude the writer takes
toward those things. NOT, I hasten to say, the narrator, but
the writer, including the writer's handpuppet, the Narrative
Voice. Does the text dwell lovingly on the details of each new
atrocity (as does, say, Clive Barker; but then, Barker is
writing horror when he does this)? Is it described in a
clinical and detached manner?

Some ways of approaching an action in a text, even when
the narrator speaks disapprovingly of that act, bespeak
another attitude on the part of the writer. Orson Scott
Card's constant fantasies about the torture, death, and
castration of young boys eventually led me to be unable
to read him anymore, not because I have any particular
reason to believe that Scott wants to torture, kill, and
castrate young boys, but because I grew too conscious
of the blatant way in which he was using that particular
tactic to manipulate my emotions. (It didn't help that I've
seen him speak at length about how deliberately he does
it.)

Then there's the narrator in certain kinds of porn (often
the most sadistic) who constantly bewails the terrible
things happening to the female "protagonist:" the
"Justine" syndrome.

I'm not suggesting that Wolfe falls into either of these
categories.

I AM saying that I have come to find the sheer quantity
of violence against women in his narratives disturbing,
and I think it needs further thinking-about by people who
understand this sort of thing better than I do.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
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http://www.danehyoakes.com
Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open
sewer and die.
  - Mel Brooks

---

From: Jack Redelfs <jackredelfs at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:52:57 +0000

>Some ways of approaching an action in a
>text, even when the narrator speaks
>disapprovingly of that act, bespeak
>another attitude on the part of the writer.

I'm not sure I agree with is, or rather, yes, I agree with it but
interpreting an author's "Narrative Voice" seems like a very
contentious and subjective thing.

I've read more Gene Wolfe books than any other author, and Card
comes in second, he's not my second favorite SF author, just very
consistent (he's somewhere in the range of #11-20).You're right that
Card has a sadistic streak, but I think you overstate your case, especially
in regards to castration. I'm  having a tough time recalling any castrations

in the novels. Maybe it was in his short fiction, most of it written quite
early.
Maybe you've mostly read his early stuff, like _Hart's Hope_, _Treason_,
and _The Worthing Chronicles_? He got a lot "softer" as he aged,
although he also became a lot more inconsistent.

I tend to think that part of the reason that Card and Wolfe are
often seen as vicious, misogynistic, or misanthropic, is this:
both writers are heavily influenced by the Old Testament.
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From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:59:01 +0000

>characters and situations in his stories.

What I would say is that his woman characters are often foolish or evil,
creating situations where misogyny is apparently justified.

Compare Wolfe to Iain M. Banks, who also has a penchant for including
"misogynist characters and situations" (not to mention torture) in his
writing, but to completely different effect.

Maybe it's not fair to bring this up, but when I read "Letters Home" I was
struck by Wolfe's lack of empathy for the Korean prostitutes he encounters.
He was very young at the time, but it's hard not to draw a connection to
his later fiction.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:13:50 +0000

H'mmm. Yes, my reading of Card is all quite early -- I think
the last one I read was "Wyrms." I'm pretty sure I remember
castration as theme in "Hart's Hope" and "Songmaster" --
I may have the title there a bit off.

Please note that I do _not_ see Wolfe as vicious,
misanthropic, or misogynistic; I've read most of his books
multiple times. It's just that I see something specific
that bothers me.

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:28:13 +0000

At 23:15 17/10/2006, Dan'l wrote:
>I AM saying that I have come to find the sheer quantity of violence 
>against women in his narratives disturbing, and I think it needs 
>further thinking-about by people who understand this sort of thing 
>better than I do.

I am not such a person, unfortunately... but I think it's interesting 
to compare Wolfe in this respect with another of my favourite SF 
writers, Philip Dick. In much of Dick's mature work there's this 
recurrent figure of the beautiful woman with long, dark hair who 
maliciously betrays the love of the protagonist. You don't have to be 
a psychoanalyst to suspect that Dick had some particular neurosis he 
was exercising there, particularly when you note that he formed 
unhappy marriages with a number of women also fitting that 
description. Positive images of women to put alongside these negative 
ones are very rare -- so I think it's fair to describe this writing 
as having a misogynistic trait, albeit a fairly tightly-focused one.

The handling of women in Wolfe's writing seems to me to be more 
broadly negative. He is quite capable of creating positive women 
characters, but he seems rarely to choose to do so. Instead his women 
characters often seem to be defined by their status as one kind or 
another of sexual object. While I think it's dangerous to impute 
opinions and beliefs to a writer on the basis of what they write, you 
do have to wonder what's going through his mind as he's composing 
some of the passages.

I know very few women who enjoy reading Wolfe, which is a pity but 
not really a surprise.

Mo

---

From: Fred Kiesche <godel2escher2bach at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:14:09 +0000

On several recent threads.

Stories aren't always happy. Stories don't always tell
us what we already know or feel comfortable with. So,
Wolfe is just practicing his craft.

Author's don't always equal their stories.

And...to quote from The Master, Himself:

"Read. No matter what you may long to believe, you
cannot become a writer without tens of thousands of
hours of reading. You cannot please the master until
you have been a master and know what is pleasing."

So, hmmmm, maybe he has detected a msogynist streak in
literature, and, therefore, by extension, in society
overall?

As for Mr. Twain, he lived in a different era. He may
have reflected some of the attributes of that era.
However, I cannot think of somebody who wrote such a
wonderful book as "Huckleberry Finn" with such a
wonderfully sympathetic character as Jim, as a true
racist.

(Oddly enough, one champion of the anti-slavery
movement lived on his property in CT.)

          Fred Kiesche (FPK3)
  
  My books are water; those of great geniuses are wine. Everybody drinks water. (Mark Twain, "Notebook")
Over 7,000 postings served! See The Eternal Golden Braid (http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/ ).

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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:35:00 +0000

I'll chime in by suggesting that there is a continuum here, as for most 
human characteristics.  I suggest the poles of the continuum are not 
misogyny and reality but rather misogyny and chivalry.  On one end there are 
men who fear and/or loathe women, on the other end are men who feel women 
deserve a higher degree of respect, protection and caring than men (yes, 
sorry, Dan'l I'm accusing you of being a gentleman).  I'm not sure it is 
accurate to call the middle "realism".  And I'm not sure each person has a 
lot of choice on where they fall on the scale.

I notice the discussion has focused solely on Wolfe's treatment of women 
rather than an objective comparison of whether he treats his female 
characters worse than his male characters.  It would seem there are other 
chivalrous gentlemen in the room.  Are there any thoughts on whether Wolfe 
treats his male characters better than women? (and no fair using 
quantitative measures, Wolfe makes it clear he identifies strongly with his 
protagonists so naturally they will mostly be men).

As for most human continuums (continua) of values, it can be uncomfortable 
when one person is placed in close contact with someone else who resides a 
great distance away on the continuum.  I think we can all agree Wolfe is 
writing from his heart and his deeper feelings about women are expressed.  
Dan'ls expressed view was also heartfelt and I take his use of the term 
"misogynist" to be a recognition of the distance between himself and Wolfe 
on this issue, not a flat condemnation.

Daniel D. Jones raises an important question:  Is Wolfe's "misogyny" 
presented in a way which is meant to inspire outrage in a reader, or a 
recognition of how things "really" are?  I think people are disagreeing on 
this.

Mo's observation that few women seem to become Wolfe fanatics is germaine.  
There was an Alice who appeared on this list in its early days and I think I 
remember a complaint or two about Wolfe's presentation of women from her.  
This suggests to me that Wolfe is not so successful if he is trying to 
inspire outrage or empathy in regard to women's issues.  I don't think he is 
trying to.

Jack's observation of connection between identification with the Old 
Testament and mysogyny was interesting.  While the Middle East is generally 
known for being "misogynist" on the scale (regardless of faith) the early 
days of Christianity and Roman Catholicism show an even stronger vein, in my 
estimation.  In researching some of Wolfe's saint names I was really struck 
by how many of the early female saints were canonized for virtues of 
virginity, chastity, fighting off sexual advances, dressing as a man to 
avoid sex, etc.

Lastly, I'll note again that it seems to me that Wolfe is writing from his 
heart and I suspect few of his devoted readers would sign a petition 
requesting he change his attitude.

-bsharp

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From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:22:27 +0000

> I may have the title there a bit off.

In _Songmaster_ you might say the main character is psychologically  
castrated:  part of the training of the Songbirds is a conditioning  
against orgasm, resulting in some sort of violent, painful reaction.   
The confused young man who initiates a sexual encounter with the  
Songbird is physically castrated (and IIRC, lobotomized) as a  
punishment.

Castration is a punishment offered in _Hart's Hope_, but I don't  
recall it being thematic in any way.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:06:04 +0000

On 10/18/06, Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk> wrote:

> maliciously betrays the love of the protagonist. You don't have
> to be a psychoanalyst to suspect that Dick had some particular
> neurosis he was exercising there, particularly when you note that
> he formed unhappy marriages with a number of women also
> fitting that description.

For what it's worth, Dick himself eventually decided that the
image of "the dark-haired woman" in his writing was all about
his twin sister, who died shortly after birth.

> Positive images of women to put alongside these negative

Positive images of women in Dick? H'mmm. I think most of his
characters, male and female, are "positive," just not "heroic." If
you'd said this about, say, Barry Malzberg, now...

> characters, but he seems rarely to choose to do so. Instead his
> women characters often seem to be defined by their status as one
> kind or another of sexual object. While I think it's dangerous to
> impute opinions and beliefs to a writer on the basis of what they
> write, you do have to wonder what's going through his mind as he's
> composing some of the passages.

Yep. That's totally the direction I'm heading in these days.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:17:07 +0000

Point of order.

On 10/18/06, b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I think we can all agree Wolfe is

I did not use the term "misogynist" except once, and that was to
specifically state that I did NOT consider Wolfe one. I believe it
was David who brought the term in -- specifically, he spoke of
"blatant misogyny" in regards to certain themes (which I DO find
disturbing; make no mistake) in Wolfe's oeuvre.

(Nor am I at all clear on why you accuse me of being a gentleman,
based on this coinscription; nor, for that matter, of why it would be
something I should consider an "accusation," as opposed, to, say,
a "compliment.")

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:50:27 +0000

On Wednesday 18 October 2006 08:35, b sharp wrote:
> There was an Alice who appeared on this list in its early days and I think
> I remember a complaint or two about Wolfe's presentation of women from her.
> inspire outrage or empathy in regard to women's issues.  I don't think he
> is trying to.

To tie this into another recent thread, does it matter what his intent is?  
The story stands or falls on its own merits, not the author's intent.  If 
intent does matter, then, while Wolfe may not be attempting to inspire 
outrage or emapathy, I don't think he's trying to encourage or praise 
misogyny either.

In the particular story DoDrI, I don't think misogyny was a theme of the story 
so much as was the value of human beings, regardless of gender.  Behaviorism 
and similar theories which treated human beings as machine-like automatons 
were in vogue at the time the story was written.  I'd strongly suspect that 
this is more relevant to interpreting the story than is the treatment of 
women.

---

From: timothy fletcher <ss4vegita_2000 at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:08:50 +0000

First, I don't know if this is acceptable to others here, but I've always seen Wolfe's somewhat narrow and negative portrayal of women as a part of his being so ingrained in revisiting old science fiction cliches (I can't figure out how to do accents). In a lot of old science fiction and fantasy, at least that I've read, female characters are shallow and seem to be more of a outlet for the protagonist's sexual adventures and companionship needs than a realistic person. That may seem a narrow view of science fiction, but I think it's at least somewhat valid. In Lord of the Rings, for instance, the women are almost completely background characters (with some mild exceptions that were brought more to the foreground in the films). As someone said, he obviously is capable of creating deep and complex female characters, which makes me think he purposely does not, especially since I have seen him in interviews so heavily enforce the importance of characterization. 
 
 Second, and this is slightly off topic, but a response to b. sharp's statement:
Jack's observation of connection between identification with the Old 
Testament and mysogyny was interesting.  While the Middle East is generally 
known for being "misogynist" on the scale (regardless of faith) the early 
days of Christianity and Roman Catholicism show an even stronger vein, in my 
estimation.  In researching some of Wolfe's saint names I was really struck 
by how many of the early female saints were canonized for virtues of 
virginity, chastity, fighting off sexual advances, dressing as a man to 
avoid sex, etc.
If I may respectfully disagree (if you are saying, as it seems to me, that early Christianity was in some way misogynystic), having some background in the study of early christianity (2 relevent B.A.'s), early Christianity was a haven to women. In fact, there is some evidence that early Christianity actually raised the role of women. They were treated more as human beings. This is discussed in Stark's Rise of Christianity, I believe, but I've even seen it in some fundamentalist histories. I agree about the early female saints, but I'm not sure that's much sign of misogyny since chastity was important for both early males and females (interestingly enough, from what I remember, some early vains of gnosticism (well, some scholars would disagree in calling it true gnosticism), and possibly some later, believed that since the spirit was good and the body evil, and the spirit more important than flesh, they were free to follow there own sexual desires to the fullest, which is
 something Paul disputes in I Corinthians).

OK, you can flame me now.

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 03:17:43 +0000

> wonderfully sympathetic character as Jim, as a true

Twain had no problem with black people; he paid for more than one to 
attend college, among other philanthropies. However, he had little use 
for Indians, other than as the unsympathetic villain, Injun Joe in _The 
Adventures of Tom Sawyer_.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:03:38 +0000

> of violence against women in his narratives

But not one iota as disturbing as the true acts of
violence against women perpetuated daily in the world.
Heck man, two women were killed by abusive
spouses/boyfriends within a year on the street I lived
on as a teenager on and I've called the cops twice on
a neighbor who was beating up his girlfriend just this
year. It's definitely a literary obsession of Wolfe's
but that's a writer's job, to push and then push
harder. Good for Wolfe for disturbing you, and better
for you for being disturbed. Perhaps too, there is a
misidentification of chauvanism with misogyny? Just
thinking out loud.

Don

---

From: Nicholas Gevers <vermoulian at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:40:20 +0000

It'll be interesting to see what people think of
Wolfe's main female character in *Soldier of Sidon*,
the "singing girl" Myt'sereu, who is prone to drinking
and promiscuity. There's also a new Wolfe story, "Six
>>From Atlantis", which takes a number of shots at
Robert E. Howard's treatment of women; whether Wolfe
is being ironic or not is up to the reader to decide.

--Nick Gevers.

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From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:08:31 +0000

At 19:06 18/10/2006, Dan'l wrote:
>For what it's worth, Dick himself eventually decided that the image 
>of "the dark-haired woman" in his writing was all about his twin 
>sister, who died shortly after birth.

Mmm... I've never found that a psychologically convincing explanation 
for this particular aspect of his writing (although clearly the 
missing-twin theme does emerge elsewhere). It seems to me that Dick 
shied away from confronting the influence of his relationship with 
his rather domineering mother.

But maybe it's wrong of me to feel it's OK to psychoanalyse Dick 
because he's not around any more, when I'd be reluctant to examine 
Wolfe the same way ;-)

> > Positive images of women to put alongside these negative > ones 
> are very rare -- so I think it's fair to describe this writing > as 
> having a misogynistic trait, albeit a fairly tightly-focused one.
>

Sure, you're quite right. I was using a lazy shorthand of implication 
-- meant to say something like "images of women engaging positively 
with the male protagonist", as contrasted to the dark-haired woman's 
activities.

Mo

===================================================
Live dirt, up a sidetrack carted, is a putrid evil.
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---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:35:50 +0000

Dan'l writes:
>specifically state that I did NOT >consider Wolfe one. I believe it was 
>David who brought the term in -- specifically, he spoke of
>disturbing; make no mistake) in >Wolfe's oeuvre. (Nor am I at all clear on 
>why you accuse me of being a gentleman, based on this >coinscription; nor, 
>for that matter, of why it would be something I should consider >an 
>"accusation," as opposed, to, say,a "compliment.")

Sorry Dan'l I had thought you used the term misogynist to decribe Wolfe's 
scenarios (not Wolfe) but it was the other Dan,  Daniel D Jones in a 
discourse with Jeff Wilson.  Accusing you of being a gentleman was my 
attempt at a wry, ironic compliment which failed miserably as do so many of 
my attempts.  That said, there are some people (a minority surely) in the 
world who do consider the connotations associated with the term "gentleman" 
less than complimentary.

(Thanks to Jeff Wilson for bringing up A Boy and His Dog! Couldn't be an SF 
misogyny discussion without mentioning that one eh?)

Daniel D Jones says:
>In the particular story DoDrI, I don't think misogyny was a theme of the 
>story so much as was the >value of human beings, regardless of gender.
and
>does it matter what his intent is?  The story stands or falls on its own 
>merits, not the author's >intent If intent does matter, then, while Wolfe 
>may not be attempting to inspire outrage or >emapathy, I don't think he's 
>trying to encourage or praise misogyny either.

Thought experiment:  How would your feelings as a reader change if the 
murdered person in DoDrI had been a man?  If Thecla's or Hunna's or 
Morwenna's torture had been done to a man?  I think most would feel a little 
less bothered.  Despite protestations, gender matters to almost all of us 
including Gene Wolfe.

Jack Redelfs writes:

>In order for there to be a true appreciation for chivalry, perhaps you 
>should make it clear that >women are in great danger? Perhaps if, as an 
>author, you shepherd your female characters from >indignities, you paint a 
>rose-colored picture of the world.

Well, I hate to use the R word, but in reality, by any measure, at any point 
in the lifespan, males are in greater danger and are injured and killed more 
often than females.  Despite this (ignoring a few radical Men's Rights 
groups) the safety and protection of women continues to be of higher 
priority than protection of men in our society.  Chivalry colors our social 
outlook so universally it is hard to see it.

Tolkein revels in chivalry and refuses to let female characters be 
physically harmed (Eowyn is the dramatic exception but she had to dress as a 
man and of course she recovers).  Tolkein won't even show us ugly women like 
bearded dwarf wives and female orcs.  Wolfe (a fanatic Tolkein fan) chooses 
to let women come to harm and death many times.  I am unabashedly interested 
in his intent as well as the effect that has on various readers.

timothy fletcher writes:

>If I may respectfully disagree (if you are saying, as it seems to me, that 
>early Christianity was in >some way misogynystic), having some background 
>in the study of early christianity (2 relevent >B.A.'s), early Christianity 
>was a haven to women. In fact, there is some evidence that early 
> >Christianity actually raised the role of women. They were treated more as 
>human beings.  I agree >about the early female saints, but I'm not sure 
>that's much sign of misogyny since chastity was >important for both early 
>males and females.

You make a good point and I sort of covered myself by using quotation marks 
around my use of the term "misogynistic".  I agree with Don Dogget that a 
distinction should be made between misogyny and chauvanism, the former being 
hate of women and the latter being a form of chivalry (perverted?) in which 
women are protected so thoroughly they aren't allowed much freedom.

However I can't agree with your assessment of equality in early Christian 
society....maybe I missed them but in my research I didn't encounter any 
male saints who were canonized for chastity and virginity. Wouldn't a male 
virgin deserve even more credit than a female? ;-).

I haven't read Wizard Knight yet, but Bob Miller inspires me to do so.

-bsharp

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From: timothy fletcher <ss4vegita_2000 at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:36:12 +0000

This, to me, is probably one of the most interesting points so far (though there have been a lot of interesting ones). The very fact that we're discussing this shows that people care about positive treatment and portrayal of women in literature. That may seem obvious, but I don't think it's something that would have mattered to earlier generations (and I don't just mean American generations). 

As others have said, Wolfe, it seems, can create positive and sympathetic female characters, so the question is why doesn't he do so very often? It could be because he has some chauvanistic or misogynistic feelings, but it could also be to achieve some particular reaction from readers. I don't think it's impossible that he is something of a misogynist or chauvanist, but I'm not sure the evidence is clear enough on that point. He has some postitive women in his fiction, and I find it difficult to pinpoint an author's psychological state by looking at his work. I think the best evidence anyone has presented for anything resembling chavanism is the point from "Letters from Home" (though having little sypathy for prostitutes is something a lot of more conservative men would feel). 

I really didn't mean complete equality, and I'm sorry if it seemed I did. I mean more elevation, perhaps some form of chivalry. In Greco-Roman society women had few rights, and, like in other cultures, female babies were a burden, sometimes leading them to be "exposed to the elements." Christians had a very different world-view, and they gave women a higher station. 

Men have never been rewarded for chastity very much by any culture. Even in modern society women are devalued for sexual activity while men are praised (this has become something of a cliche, but it's still valid, I believe). In early Christian writings, I can think of Augustine of the top of my head, men sometimes did praise and favor chastity for themselves. Earlier than Augustine, Paul in I Corinthians says it is good not to marry and that he himself chooses not to marry. Celibacy in priests is another example, though it did not develop in Christianity until the second or third century.

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From: timothy fletcher <ss4vegita_2000 at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:48:13 +0000

I think this discussion is being too narrow. There are a lot of fantasy and science fiction authors, especially modern ones, who portray violence against women. Off the top of my head I can think of the most extreme, Goodkind and Martin. I know that Goodkind is barely considered literary, and Martin perhaps less so than Wolfe, but if we are psychoanalyzing authors by their works, those two would have to hate women exceedingly more than Wolfe himself. Tolkien would have to find them uninteresting and ignore them. And what about female authors? Should we look at more female authors and decide whether they hate men? I find "The Yellow Wallpaper" suspect. 

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From: Jack Redelfs <jackredelfs at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 22:20:14 +0000

> any point in the lifespan, males are in greater danger and are
> injured and killed more often than females.

Men are risk-takers; they are more prone to injure themselves
and other men. Irrelevant.

> the safety and protection of women continues to be of
> higher priority than protection of men in our society.  Chivalry
> colors our social outlook so universally it is hard to see it.

I heartily disagree.
What do you mean by "our society?" The US? North
America and western Europe? Your own social sphere?
Because I just don't see it.
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From: Bob Miller <bob_bageera at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 00:23:37 +0000

I heartily disagree.

Well, I do know the reflexive courtesy I consider synonymous with chivalry 
that some show women is usually quite appreciated.  At my  age I only get 
smiles of thankyou and deference due to that age and I appreciate those.

While we have a much much less chivalrous societal base now than before ~ 
1975, it is true that we have many customs that are based on that code. For 
example, the USMarineC does not, as a policy, put owmen in combat positions. 
  On the other hand as eminent a sociologist as Dr. Greeley has stated in 
print that one of the effects of "women's lib" seems to be a major blow to 
chivalry (# of rapes and date rapes on campus up dramatically over the past 
few decades?).

To be clear on my own part, "all morality comes from women and children 
first" --RAH  and he meant into the lifeboat first, is the base of my own 
behavior.  Besides, either the smile or view of some walking away makes my 
eyes feel better.

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From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 01:05:56 +0000

This has been gone over a number of times in the last few years, here and
elsewhere.  The attitudes and actions of the characters in his books are
always completely consonant with the worlds they live in, and those worlds
are usually classical or medieval in spirit (perhaps Augustinian) and
detail.  To me, he captures those times pretty accurately.  And in most of
those times, the status of women was as he portrays it.  Similarly, his
male central characters often represent the virtues, whether classical
(which are masculine virtues I would think) or theological.  One can then
only ask why someone may wish to write about those settings, and his essay
on Tolkein may answer that.

Wolfe has Dorcas say that thoughts are noblest and greatest when the world
is at its hardest, and also the converse.  So, he always puts his
characters through the wringer.

I think the book that seldom gets enough discussion is _Peace_, in that it
is (presumably) closer to the life that Gene Wolfe and his parents and
grandparents live/lived.  I think Olivia's portrait is psychologically
convincing.  I also think the speech (in the doctor's surgery, isn't it)
about the ideal life being the now dying agrarian lifestyle is probably
how the author feels (cf _My Antonia_).  It is also in keeping with
Catholic ideas of around that time (late 19th-early 20th C) of the good
life.

David Duffy.

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:33:09 +0000

Jack Redelfs takes me to task responding to my post: any point in the 
lifespan, males are in greater danger and are injured and killed more often 
than females.
With-

>Men are risk-takers; they are more prone to injure themselves and other 
>men. Irrelevant.

Men remain in greater danger throughout their lives than women, that is my 
point, regardless of the source of that danger.  Perhaps you are suggesting 
it is irrelevant since men deserve their danger because they (as a species?) 
put danger on themselves?  I won't accuse you of misandry? misoandry? since 
I think society as a whole tends to agree with the sentiment that men 
deserve what they get. (there are biological arguments for why that system 
was originally set up by females, but..nevermind, nevermind, lol).

Jack responds to my:   the safety and protection of women continues to be of 
higher priority than protection of men in our society.  Chivalry colors our 
social outlook so universally it is hard to see it.
With-
>I heartily disagree.  What do you mean by "our society?" The US? North 
>America and western >Europe? Your own social sphere? Because I just don't 
>see it.

Well, I did say it is hard to see.  Actually I deleted a lot of qualifiers 
from that post on WHICH society I meant and regarding exceptions like female 
infanticide in rural India and China and female genital mutilation in 
animist Africa, fearing that was drifting too far from Wolfe (it probably 
is).  I'll go out on a limb to guess that no tribal peoples of Africa or 
Asia subscribe to this list and extend the definition of "our society" to 
mean the general cultural milieu of anyone reading this.

To help Jack or others to see what I'm saying, I'll borrow from Bob Miller 
and ask if you are adamantly in favor of putting women on the front line of 
the battlefield.  I'll also ask if you were on the Titanic if you would 
demand an equal chance as any woman to be first in the lifeboat.  If the 
answer is no to either question I'd ask why.  And timidly suggest the answer 
is....chivalry?  For what other reason (again won't get into biology) can we 
as a society consider men to be more expendable than women?

okay, back to Wolfe.

-bsharp

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---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:51:14 +0000

On Oct 19, 2006, at 7:33 PM, b sharp wrote:
>  And timidly suggest the answer

Chivalry *is* biology.

One guy can impregnate thousands of women.  A woman can bear a  
lifetime maximum of, what, maybe 20 or 30 children?

Adam

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 04:07:13 +0000

On 10/19/06, Bob Miller <bob_bageera at hotmail.com> wrote:
>   On the other hand as eminent a sociologist as Dr.
> Greeley has stated in print that one of the effects of
> "women's lib" seems to be a major blow to chivalry
> (# of rapes and date rapes on campus up dramatically
> over the past few decades?).

Thank you for that question mark, because that
"up dramatically" is definitely in question. It is
clear that at least _part_ of that increase is due
to increased _reporting_ -- one of the effects of
feminism/"women's lib"/whatever you want to call
it is that women aren't afraid to point the finger when
they're raped.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 04:36:40 +0000

> misogyny discussion without mentioning that one eh?)

If you check the quotations, David Duffy brought it up; I just did a 
little deconstruction on it.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:01:23 +0000

> lifetime maximum of, what, maybe 20 or 30 children?

I'll bite: Why protect one woman and her children if there are thousands 
more for you to knock up?

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:51:07 +0000

> more for you to knock up?

Uh, cause there are going to be approximately equal numbers of men  
and women after a couple of generations anyway.  If there are plenty  
of women left then having plenty of men around will take care of  
itself.  If there aren't, then the population will remain small.

In short: males are expendable.

Adam

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:41:54 +0000

> more for you to knock up?

There weren't thousands more.  Our biology was defined through  thousands of 
years of living in small tribes where survival of the self and of the tribe 
was constantly in question.  The environment we've lived in since the rise of 
civilization has had little effect on our biology.  It's an eyeblink on the 
evolutionary time scale.

In a small tribe, if most of the men get killed, the few remaining can serve 
to produce just as large a next generation as if nothing had happened.  If 
most of the women get killed, the tribe is almost certainly dead.

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:03:47 +0000

I'll follow up on Jeff's, Adam's and Daniel's biological posts to note with 
evil irony that
the European and Islamic codes of chivalry which extend such great 
protection to females (and their purity) can be seen as the product of 
barbarian cultures, hell-bent on warfare, global expansion and maximum 
population growth and tacit or open polygamy (polygyny).

In contrast, the female infanticide found in China and India was the product 
of mature, peaceful civilizations interested in population control, 
monogamy, balance and harmony. (all this being historical argument based on 
pre- modern birth control time periods and surely subject to much dissent 
and hackle raising ;-)).

The topic of protecting females from war reminds me..., Hmph writes:

>I seem to remember rather liking the female soldier in, is it the third or 
>the fourth part of TBotNS? I forgot her name and don't have time to look it 
>up now. Also, wasn't there a >sympathetic female sailor in TUotNS?

I can't think of a female soldier in BotNS, but the female sailor is surely 
Gunny, whose younger version goes by Burgundofora.  I guess both are 
sympathetic characters though they both betray Severian, one in a minor way, 
one in a major way.

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---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:44:12 +0000

timothy fletcher wrote:
> I think this discussion is being too narrow. There are a lot of fantasy 
> and science fiction authors, especially modern ones, who portray 
> violence against women. Off the top of my head I can think of the most 
> extreme, Goodkind and Martin. I know that Goodkind is barely considered 
> literary, and Martin perhaps less so than Wolfe, but if we are 
> psychoanalyzing authors by their works, those two would have to hate 
> women exceedingly more than Wolfe himself. Tolkien would have to find 
> them uninteresting and ignore them. And what about female authors? 
> Should we look at more female authors and decide whether they hate men? 
> I find "The Yellow Wallpaper" suspect.

It's not quanity of violence against women, it's the moral context. Is 
it presented as a crime? spoils of war? just desserts? pretext to 
arranged marriage? harmless fun?

---

From: Dave Lebling <dlebling at hyraxes.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:45:31 +0000

>> I can't think of a female soldier in BotNS

I would assume he's thinking of Foila, who is indeed a sympathetic and
likable character, a soldier recovering from wounds(?) in the Pelerines'
hospice. (She's the prize in the story-telling contest, but turns the tables
on the contestants by entering and winning.) This is in _Citadel of the
Autarch_.

-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha

---

From: timothy fletcher <ss4vegita_2000 at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 18:38:00 +0000

Well, that post was meant to be mostly humorous, hence the "Yellow Wallpaper" comment, but I would say there is some validity to it. Moral context is truly important, but if you constantly write about rape and mistreatment of women over and over again, then there would seem to be some kind of over-infatuation going on. Goodkind really does that more than Martin. I haven't read him since high school, but I remember some kind of violence (usually sexual in nature) against women at least 5 or 6 times in a book, probably varying from book to book. That could just be my own memory. I think the argument with Wolfe is similar. He could and does write about other characters being mistreated or lacking depth, but he nearly consistently does so with women, with only a couple of exceptions. I think that's pretty much what the argument is, and I've seen little regarding moral context, since only a couple of people have pointed to actual examples (most of the ones I think people have
 mentioned are exceptions. That's not a slight against you at all, just an observation of the entire discussion).

 		
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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:03:46 +0000

Dave Lebling writes regarding the female soldier:

>likable character, a soldier >recovering from wounds(?) in the Pelerines' 
>hospice. (She's the prize in the story-telling contest, >but turns the 
>tables on the contestants by entering and winning.) This is in _Citadel of 
>the
>Autarch_.

Oooh how could I not think of Foila.  Yes, she is likable enough to dispel 
accusations Wolfe can't develop an admirable female character...But then 
again, we last see her critically wounded, probably dying,....hm....

-bsharp
(p.s. forgot Vulcan neck pinch in my list of 60's pop references in my last 
post)

---

From: Daniel D Jones <ddjones at riddlemaster.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 21:56:00 +0000

On Friday 20 October 2006 14:38, timothy fletcher wrote:
> Well, that post was meant to be mostly humorous, hence the "Yellow
> Wallpaper" comment, but I would say there is some validity to it. Moral
> context is truly important, but if you constantly write about rape and
> mistreatment of women over and over again, then there would seem to be some
> kind of over-infatuation going on. Goodkind really does that more than
> Martin. I haven't read him since high school, but I remember some kind of
> violence (usually sexual in nature) against women at least 5 or 6 times in
> a book, probably varying from book to book. That could just be my own
> memory. I think the argument with Wolfe is similar. He could and does write
> about other characters being mistreated or lacking depth, but he nearly
> consistently does so with women, with only a couple of exceptions. I think
> that's pretty much what the argument is, and I've seen little regarding
> moral context, since only a couple of people have pointed to actual
> examples (most of the ones I think people have mentioned are exceptions.
> That's not a slight against you at all, just an observation of the entire
> discussion).

For what it's worth, it could also mean that Wolfe finds violence against 
women particularly horrifying.  An author's purpose is to impact and move the 
reader.  As such, it's natural that they choose powerful, emotional scenes to 
do that.  If Wolfe finds women in dire straits to be particularly powerful, 
he may assume that his reader does as well and intentionally include such 
scenes because he finds them repulsive rather than attractive.

---

From: timothy fletcher <ss4vegita_2000 at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 22:18:23 +0000

That is very much true; I will concede that. I will say, though, that it is (or seems it must be) difficult to pinpoint which is the case with some authors, which explains this discussion. Personally, I doubt Wolfe harbors any ill will or dislike toward women (Goodkind either, for that matter). I know a smattering about psychology, and could probably learn more by asking some friends (one of whom is a professional psychologist), but I've heard that in Rorschach tests and such the results are based more on patterns and types than the answers themselves.

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From: Jack Redelfs <jackredelfs at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:56:37 +0000

I have been interested the discussion of evolution, but I'm not
sure if a convincing case has been made for "chivalry is biology."
Evolution "says" that society can't allow men to kill fertile women
wantonly. But evolution has no problem with men beating and
humiliating their wives, or raping and enslaving strangers.
These actions don't interfere with reproduction so evolution
wouldn't seem to "have an opinon" on them.

That's an interesting side-discussion, but more closely
regarding Wolfe and his attitudes:

Jeff Wilson said:
> Moral context is truly important, but if you constantly write about
> rape and mistreatment of women over and over again, then there would s
> seem to be some kind of over-infatuation going on.

> I think that's pretty much what the argument is, and I've seen little
> regarding moral context, since only a couple of people have pointed to a
> actual examples.

Perhaps few have addressed the argument because it seems so
absurd on the face of it. It's so very easy to say that there are countless
authors, in literary and pulp fiction, that describe horrid behavior toward
women in obsessive detail - what about Samuel Delany's _Dhalgren_,
for one example? Wolfe doesn't even come close. Someone
already mentioned Stephen King and Clive Barker, "but they write
horror, so it's okay.." Unlike a million counter-examples,
most of the rapes and tortures in Wolfe are alluded to,
not described in detail.

I have always thought of Wolfe as one of the most humane SF
authors. He seems like the last SF author I would have thought
guilty of misogyny. Although maybe he put himself at risk by
failing to write thinly veiled political tracts about womens' and
gay rights (ala John Varley).

It appears that you, Jeff, are not immediately going to
condemn Wolfe, and I'm glad. So you ask:

> It's not quanity of violence against women, it's the moral
> context. Is it presented as a crime? spoils of war? just
> desserts? pretext to arranged marriage? harmless fun?

I'm glad you are asking these questions. We could go over
this thing on a case by case basis, and I'd try to be openminded
about the possiblity that I'm wrong about Wolfe, although I'm
not sure I'd succeed. It's probably difficult to be objective about
your favorite author.

In one respect Wolfe's
work IS similar to horror authors like Lawrence Block and
Clive Barker. The Bad Guys quite often "win."
I won't deny that sometimes this causes me to
feel sick or disgusted when I'm reading Wolfe. Perhaps if
I had a different intellectual background, I'd think
that Wolfe was jaded and perverse (or misogynistic?) to
write like this.

Or maybe he's trying to make a point: true victories are
not made from killing Bad Guys or saving damsels in distress.
Sure, we should try to do what we can to right the world, but if
we fall short, are we to despair? If we only
recognize temporal succes, are we not setting ourselves up
for failure? True victories are victories of the heart.

Or, to paraprase _Lictor_,
"They say you are a great warrior who has
killed many," said the chief of the Island people to
Severian. "I am warrior, but not great," said Severian.
"For a man is made great not by killing others, but by
killing parts of himself."

Of course, this is just my own personal interpretation
of what Wolfe is trying to say. Others have a completely
different take on it, and who's to say they're not more correct?

That's the beauty of Gene Wolfe. He doesn't hit you over the head
with a moral message, like many authors do (Heinlein, anone?)
There's no Wise Old Man to explain what lessons you "should"
be learning from this scene or that.

Perhaps that's why _The Book Of The New Sun_ is beloved by
devout christians and confirmed atheists alike.
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From: timothy fletcher <ss4vegita_2000 at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 02:09:28 +0000

I can agree with Wolfe being loved by both atheists and devout Christians, having been both and loved Wolfe as both. 

That is something I think really makes it difficult to say Wolfe is in some way against women (I'm trying to think of a way to state that and encompass everything that's been discussed, but everthing seems inadequate), that there are so many other authors that are worse. Not that other authors should be used to judge Wolfe, but I've not really heard many people call these other authors misogynists (Delany, I don't know about; I've heard people say that all homosexuals are ultimately misogynists, but I don't really buy that, per se)

Jack Redelfs <jackredelfs at gmail.com> wrote: I have been interested the discussion of evolution, but I'm not

  

  

  
 In one respect Wolfe's

  

  

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 18:42:49 +0000

> wouldn't seem to "have an opinon" on them.

Actually, some of these behaviors are probably favorable at
some level to the reproduction of the genes of those who
perform them. Not beating wives, though; that tends to kill
babies. The one place it makes evolutionary sense is in
cases of jealousy.

(Note that I am not saying anything about morality here.)

> It's so very easy to say that there are countless
> for one example?

You must be thinking of _Hogg_, or perhaps _Equinox_ (a/k/a/_The
Tides of Lust_). Those books record the actions of some truly vile
characters. _Dhalgren_, not so much. I'm stretching my brain and
I can't think of anything in _Dhalgren_ that would support this
statement.

I'm a bigger Delany fan than I am a Wolfe fan, but _Hogg_ is the
one Delany book that I'm pretty sure I will _never_ reread. It's the
only book I've ever felt unclean after reading. The titular character
is a "rape artist" -- a man who rapes women for pay, to achieve
other men's revenge.

A lot of what the book is about is evil by proxy: not only Hogg
himself, but a lot else is going on throughout the book in which
one character performs another's evil. It's ... horrendous, in the
most literal sense of the word. It's a very powerful book, but it's
just no fun to read, at _all_, on _any_ level.

> Wolfe doesn't even come close. Someone
> horror, so it's okay.."

That were I, and I was being somewhat ironic.

> Clive Barker. The Bad Guys quite often "win."

Yep. But then, I would claim that a goodly percentage of
Wolfe's work partakes of the horrific.

> be learning from this scene or that.

Actually, there are passages where various characters deliver
homilies. Silk does it a _lot_ in LONG SUN.

---

From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:58:06 +0000

At 04:09 AM 10/21/2006, you wrote:
>I can agree with Wolfe being loved by both atheists and devout 
>Christians, having been both and loved Wolfe as both.
>
>That is something I think really makes it difficult to say Wolfe is 
>in some way against women (I'm trying to think of a way to state 
>that and encompass everything that's been discussed, but everthing 
>seems inadequate), that there are so many other authors that are 
>worse. Not that other authors should be used to judge Wolfe, but 
>I've not really heard many people call these other authors 
>misogynists (Delany, I don't know about; I've heard people say that 
>all homosexuals are ultimately misogynists, but I don't really buy 
>that, per se)

Isn't Delany bisexual, anyway? For a homosexual he certainly writes a 
lot about sex with women! (And about mixed threesomes.) I didn't get 
misogynist vibes from Dhalgren. But then, it's been a while - maybe 
I've forgotten. And quite possibly my tolerance to misogyny is pretty 
high, due to having read predominantly very 'male' types of 
literature for most of my life. Maybe I just sort of ignore misogyny, 
especially in older works where I assume it was just part of the 
general culture/the 'common subsconscious' that few people could 
escape. I dunno... Oddly enough, I identify as a feminist at the same time.

- Hmpf (apparently not *quite* in lurking mode again)

---
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- 'Finder' by Carla Speed McNeil

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 17:16:36 +0000

On 10/22/06, Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net> wrote:
> Isn't Delany bisexual, anyway?

Delany regularly identifies himself as gay. He has had some
"straight experiences," including a long-term but ultimately
not-very-successful marriage to the poet Marilyn Hacker, which
_did_ result in the birth of one child, their daughter Iva.

> For a homosexual he certainly writes a
> lot about sex with women! (And about mixed threesomes.)

The "happiest" (or most successful, sexually) period of the
Delany-Hacker marriage seems to have been a period when
they welcomed a third person into their home and bed. This
is chronicled in different ways in Delany's memoir, _The Motion
of  Light in Water_, and Hacker's long poem, "The Navigators."

> I didn't get misogynist vibes from Dhalgren.

Nor do I. Delany is as feminist as a male can be.

---

From: timothy fletcher <ss4vegita_2000 at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 21:44:43 +0000

I think someone else mentioned Delany as a misogynist; I was just throwing that comment out, and after I wrote it I wondered if it might sound slightly prejudice. It's just something I've heard a lot, not something I believe. I've only read Delany a little, and never a complete novel (I liked what I read, just never finished anything), so when I said I don't know about him, I really don't. I did know he is a homosexual, only because I read a little biography of him in one book (Stars in my Pocket like Grains of Sand, I believe, but could be wrong). Personally, I'm sure he thinks women are great.

escape. I dunno... Oddly enough, I identify as a feminist at the same time

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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 06:21:14 +0000

On Oct 22, 2006, at 9:58 AM, Hmpf MacSlow wrote:
> lot about sex with women! (And about mixed threesomes.) I

As far as I know, he's homosexual these days, although he was married  
to Marilyn Hacker for a while and certainly had sex with her at least  
enough to impregnate her (read _The Motion of Light In Water_ for  
details).  However, I'm pretty sure he isn't a misogynist by any  
reasonable definition of the term.

Adam