{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4735", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4735, "subject": "Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "messages": 14, "voices": 8, "first": "2006-10-18T23:20:55+00:00", "last": "2006-10-20T04:52:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<19ee41770610181620g71479d40m526bc46af9b67379@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jack Redelfs", "address": "jackredelfs at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-18T23:20:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "b sharp said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On one end there are men who fear and/or\nloathe women, on the other end are men who feel\nwomen deserve a higher degree of respect,\nprotection and caring than men" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is a misanthrope. \"All men are wolves,\"\nsays Latro, and I don't think that it's far off from what Wolfe believes. He\nis NOT a humanist. He has no faith in human rationality, science, law,\nphilosophy, or even priests. I think he believes that all of the\ninstitutions of man, no matter how positively spun, are twisted into tools\nor weapons by carnal men (and women). Wolfe puts his faith in higher things,\nand he believes that people of goodwill are rare pearls, gemstones to be\ntreasured.\n\nIn that light, how can Wolfe fill his pages with honorable female\ncharacters? Or male?\n\nI just don't see how we can neatly say that a\nchivalrous author will refuse to put his female\ncharacters in harms way. That's like saying only\nan anti-semite would write novels about Auschwitz,\nisn't it?\n\nIn order for there to be a true appreciation for chivalry, perhaps you\nshould make it clear that women are in great danger? Perhaps if, as an\nauthor, you shepherd your female characters from indignities, you paint\na rose-colored picture of the world. And if your readers believe in that\npicture, they will feel no urgency to be chivalrous in their own conduct.\nThey will feel that it is a nicety, not a necessity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo's observation that few women seem to\nbecome Wolfe fanatics is germaine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps it is. I don't know. Tolkien is incredibly masculine, perhaps more\ninsulting to women by reason of simply ignoring them, treating them as\nnonentities, bit players. Yes, Eowyn, Arwen and Galadriel notwithstanding\n(and the latter two are mythical creatures, not ordinary human women).\nAnd yet vast throngs of women are in love with his writings.\n\nHow do we explain Mo's observation, if it is correct?\n\n1. despite the fact that his writings are kind of beyond genre, he is\npigeonholed into SF, a male-dominated genre, and 2. even in the genre, his\nprofile is rather low. Sure, he may be a highly influential author, and a\ncritical darling, but in flat numbers, his readership is quite small.\n\nb sharp also said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we can all agree Wolfe is\nwriting from his heart and his deeper feelings\nabout women are expressed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps. Wolfe's writing is so oblique, I am hard pressed to identify what\nhis feelings are on ANYTHING. Even what I said earlier in this post is based\nmostly on his interviews. His political leanings are also inscrutable in his\nfiction, beyond generalities like an abhorrence of despotism. The fact is,\nWolfe has a gift for presenting contradictory arguments (through the\ndialogue) that are very intelligent.\n\nWolfe's writing is so unusual, and so varied, that I have a very hard time\nidentifying a consistent Narrative Voice. Every Wolfe novel seems to come\nfrom a different world. Maybe he does really find them in ancient urns, or\nfloating in space?\n\nOn a related note, vis-a-vis Wolfe's small profile, I think a lot of the\nblame lies with _The Book Of The New Sun_. It's a great achievement and an\nanchor holding him down. It's widely seen as his best series, and not\nunreasonably so, and so I'll bet that many curious readers pick \"Shadow Of\nThe Torturer\" as their first foray into Wolfe. I know did. And I was\ndelighted by the bizarre vocabulary, philosophical discursions, and the\nbaroque feel of the writing. But in my experience, most people find it to\nbe a very inaccessible book. I wonder how many people tried to read it and\ngave up early on because it was too \"hard.\"\n\nI really hope we'll start inviting curious people to start with _Nightside\nThe Long Sun_, _Devil In The Forest_, _The Knight_, even _Soldier Of The\nMist_.\nAnything, really. No matter how delightful we may find it, _Shadow Of The\nTorturer_ is Wolfe's least accessible novel.\n\nOne more thing: this may be a strawman, but perhaps it has been said by\nsomeone, somewhere that Wolfe is incapable of writing a sympathetic female\ncharacter. How about Io? She seems to be totally respectable and good. She's\nhonest, wise, loyal, kind and brave. She does unsuccessfully try to seduce\nLatro, at one point, but only after travelling with him for the better part\nof a year and falling in love with him. One does not get the impression that\nshe is unreasonable or wanton." } ] }, { "message_id": "<453706F6.6060104@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-19T05:02:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": "<19ee41770610181620g71479d40m526bc46af9b67379@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Redelfs wrote:\nI just don't see how we can neatly say that a\nchivalrous author will refuse to put his female\ncharacters in harms way. That's like saying only\nan anti-semite would write novels about Auschwitz,\nisn't it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If an author complusively wrote novels about Jews being tortured and \nkilled, I'd at least suspect him of anti-semitism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One more thing: this may be a strawman, but perhaps it has been said by \nsomeone, somewhere that Wolfe is incapable of writing a sympathetic \nfemale character. How about Io? She seems to be totally respectable and \ngood. She's honest, wise, loyal, kind and brave. She does unsuccessfully \ntry to seduce Latro, at one point, but only after travelling with him \nfor the better part of a year and falling in love with him. One does not \nget the impression that she is unreasonable or wanton." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Latro books are great counterexamples for the suggestion that Wolfe \nis a misogynist himself and can't write women otherwise; Latro is \nphysically very capable, but is socially vulnerable and depends on the \nkindness and guidance of friends, many of whom are strong, sympathetic \nwomen. There are no unqualified female villains; those who participate \nin vice are at least partners in their exploitation rather than pawns \nkept by a male pimp." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200610190713.16363.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-10-19T11:13:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": "<453706F6.6060104@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday 19 October 2006 01:02, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJack Redelfs wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just don't see how we can neatly say that a\nchivalrous author will refuse to put his female\ncharacters in harms way. That's like saying only\nan anti-semite would write novels about Auschwitz,\nisn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If an author complusively wrote novels about Jews being tortured and\nkilled, I'd at least suspect him of anti-semitism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you suspect Agatha Christie of harboring a secret desire to murder? I'd \nshudder to hear what you must suspect of Stephen King and Clive Barker. :-)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-19T12:19:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility and where to begin", "in_reply_to": "<19ee41770610181620g71479d40m526bc46af9b67379@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps it is. I don't know. Tolkien is incredibly masculine, perhaps more\ninsulting to women by reason of simply ignoring them, treating them as\nnonentities, bit players. Yes, Eowyn, Arwen and Galadriel notwithstanding\n(and the latter two are mythical creatures, not ordinary human women).\nAnd yet vast throngs of women are in love with his writings.\n\nHow do we explain Mo's observation, if it is correct?\n\nTolkien's writings are permeated? with two things that lend them an \nattractiveness that is immeasurable. The first is the identification the \nreader gets with wonderful, in all senses of the word, characters. The \nsecond is the love of his universe, with all its difficulties, that is \nobvious to any reader.\n\nMany of Wolfe's leads are ambiguous and he deals with a great deal or horrid \nsituations. I would submit this tends to reduce his readership in some \nquarters. And even his \"best\" chars show a great deal of self change in \nthose books that allow development.\n\nb sharp also said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we can all agree Wolfe is\nwriting from his heart and his deeper feelings\nabout women are expressed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps. Wolfe's writing is so oblique, I am hard pressed to identify what\nhis feelings are on ANYTHING. Even what I said earlier in this post is based\nmostly on his interviews. His political leanings are also inscrutable in his\nfiction, beyond generalities like an abhorrence of despotism. The fact is,\nWolfe has a gift for presenting contradictory arguments (through the\ndialogue) that are very intelligent.\n\nI really hope we'll start inviting curious people to start with _Nightside\nThe Long Sun_, _Devil In The Forest_, _The Knight_, even _Soldier Of The\nMist_.\nAnything, really. No matter how delightful we may find it, _Shadow Of The\nTorturer_ is Wolfe's least accessible novel.\n\nI think the Wizard Knight is one of the very best novels ever written. When \nI read it to my wife, there were multiple occasions where I would stop and \nwe would just stare at each other going \"wow\". And it's fun, the chars, \nexcept Bold Berthold, are not far above us; they are, compared to me, better \nfocused.\n\nOne more thing: this may be a strawman, but perhaps it has been said by\nsomeone, somewhere that Wolfe is incapable of writing a sympathetic female\ncharacter. How about Io? She seems to be totally respectable and good. She's\nhonest, wise, loyal, kind and brave. She does unsuccessfully try to seduce\nLatro, at one point, but only after travelling with him for the better part\nof a year and falling in love with him. One does not get the impression that\nshe is unreasonable or wanton.\n\nI think Wolfe, like many of us, while beinig driven by youthandhormones at \none time, has long been coming to a more complete and cooperative \norientation in his female characters for all the 35 years I've been reading \nhim. Perhaps the queen in the Wizard/Knight is a nod toward that elder \norientation (a particular funhouse mirror of reality) as Zelazny once \ncharacterized his own work?\nThank you all again for stimulating my mind" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7.0.1.0.0.20061019153053.035fec98@gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2006-10-19T13:34:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility and where to begin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One more thing: this may be a strawman, but perhaps it has been said by\nsomeone, somewhere that Wolfe is incapable of writing a sympathetic female\ncharacter. How about Io? She seems to be totally respectable and good. She's\nhonest, wise, loyal, kind and brave. She does unsuccessfully try to seduce\nLatro, at one point, but only after travelling with him for the better part\nof a year and falling in love with him. One does not get the impression that\nshe is unreasonable or wanton." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To weigh in as a female Wolfe fan for a moment, I seem to remember \nrather liking the female soldier in, is it the third or the fourth \npart of TBotNS? I forgot her name and don't have time to look it up \nnow. Also, wasn't there a sympathetic female sailor in TUotNS?\n\nClearly, I have to read the books again...\n\nHmpf\n\n\n\n---\n\"You broke metaphysics. Fix it.\"\n- Triangle & Robert " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4537930F.2020105@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-19T15:00:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": "<200610190713.16363.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel D Jones wrote:\nOn Thursday 19 October 2006 01:02, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jack Redelfs wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I just don't see how we can neatly say that a\nchivalrous author will refuse to put his female\ncharacters in harms way. That's like saying only\nan anti-semite would write novels about Auschwitz,\nisn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If an author complusively wrote novels about Jews being tortured and\nkilled, I'd at least suspect him of anti-semitism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you suspect Agatha Christie of harboring a secret desire to murder? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No more so than most people. Murder mysteries were already established \nas a category of polite literature before she chose to write them; \nmisogyny isn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd \nshudder to hear what you must suspect of Stephen King and Clive Barker. :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With Stephen King, I don't suspect, I know he's personally tickled by, \nfor example, seeing authority figured being eaten by vicious animsls, \nbecause he cops to it. King is a subscriber to the theory that a \nwriter's hangups emerge in his work, to the extent that they can \nidentify the author of a story in which they appear. It's part of his \nmusing in DANSE MACABRE and appears as a plot device in \"The Ballad Of \nThe Flexible Bullet\", and particular hangups are discussed in the \ncommentary sections of some of his story collections." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<678808681.20061019193557@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2006-10-19T17:35:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": "<453706F6.6060104@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Jeff," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thursday, October 19, 2006, 7:02:46 AM, you wrote:\nJack Redelfs wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just don't see how we can neatly say that a\nchivalrous author will refuse to put his female\ncharacters in harms way. That's like saying only\nan anti-semite would write novels about Auschwitz,\nisn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If an author complusively wrote novels about Jews being tortured and \nkilled, I'd at least suspect him of anti-semitism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a technical term for this kind of criticism = \"the poetic of a\npolice informer.\"\n\nI don't think the aim of reading books is to find some crime to accuse\nauthor of." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nPS. >>> http://link.interia.pl/f19a6" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061019182353.26473.qmail@web54410.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-10-19T18:23:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": "<678808681.20061019193557@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If an author complusively wrote novels about Jews being tortured and \nkilled, I'd at least suspect him of anti-semitism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have good reason to suspect Elie Wiesel of anti-Semitism, I suppose.\n\nI agree with the poster who said that Wolfe is a misanthrope. Many of his characters suffer terribly. The abuse that men inflict upon other men takes different forms from the abuse that they inflict upon women, and Wolfe is aware of this fact. Perhaps your reaction to the former is less pronounced because you are yourself a man. Also, perhaps Wolfe finds himself writing more about the ways in which men abuse women than about strong, realistic female characters, because he is a man, not because he hates women. Any realistic man knows that he does not understand what it is like to be a woman - portraits he paints of her are from the outside looking in.\n\nAnyway, most of this discussion has been centered around a kind of *cough*misogynist*cough* accusation rather than any sort of organized statement, and it's getting tiresome." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370610191158y4e38f91bse369b80311fc714@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-19T18:58:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": "<678808681.20061019193557@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 10/19/06, Stanislaus quoted Jeff and wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If an author complusively wrote novels about Jews being\ntortured and killed, I'd at least suspect him of anti-semitism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a technical term for this kind of criticism = \"the poetic of\na police informer.\"\n\nI don't think the aim of reading books is to find some crime to\naccuse author of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nor do I. I think Jeff's comment, tho apt, oversimplifies -- a\npersons who \"compulsively\" (which I take to mean that this\nis a theme that crops up in all her work, regardless of its\nostensive plot, theme, etc.) writes about the torture and\nmurder of Jews may be an anti-Semite, or may be an\npropagandist fighting anti-Semitism, or may just have a\nweird mental kink that she herself doesn't understand. A\nlot of how I would respond to such a writer would depend\non the attitude with which she described the torture and\nmurder: is it written as a sort of \"torture porn,\" or is it written\nto horrify, or is it written clinically and coldly, or ...\n\nWolfe does not (in my opinion) step across the line into\n\"torture porn.\" Though there _is_, in my opinion, an\namount of \"violence against women\" in his work that must\nbe considered, it's clear to me that _at a minimum_ we\ncan say that he is not consciously indulging a desire to\nactually rape, torture, and kill women, nor pandering to\none, the way (say) \"John Norman\" does. Beyond that I\nam not prepared to go." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nTragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open\nsewer and die.\n - Mel Brooks" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7.0.1.0.0.20061019213620.03ad2b60@gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2006-10-19T19:42:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": "<20061019182353.26473.qmail@web54410.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any realistic man knows that he does not understand what it is like \nto be a woman - portraits he paints of her are from the outside looking in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, as a woman who has spent most of her life reading books \nwritten by men, from a male perspective, and hasn't found that \nperspective mind-bogglingly alien, I'd say the differences between \nmen and women are somewhat (or, depending on which depiction we're \nactually talking about, often even *hugely*) exaggerated. Neither our \nemotions nor our thought processes seem greatly different to me. Of \ncourse, I can only go by what I know from literature, movies, \nconversations with members of the opposite sex... but I'd say that's \nquite a corpus of evidence.\n\nSorry, that was OT, I know. Just a personal pet peeve.\n\nHmpf\n\n\n\n---\n\"I'm not sure that's ethical.\"\n\"It's not, it's vodka.\"\n- Life On Mars " } ] }, { "message_id": "<200610191759.23091.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-10-19T21:59:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": "<7.0.1.0.0.20061019213620.03ad2b60@gmx.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thursday 19 October 2006 15:42, Hmpf MacSlow wrote:\nAny realistic man knows that he does not understand what it is like\nto be a woman - portraits he paints of her are from the outside looking\nin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, as a woman who has spent most of her life reading books\nwritten by men, from a male perspective, and hasn't found that\nperspective mind-bogglingly alien, I'd say the differences between\nmen and women are somewhat (or, depending on which depiction we're\nactually talking about, often even *hugely*) exaggerated. Neither our\nemotions nor our thought processes seem greatly different to me. Of\ncourse, I can only go by what I know from literature, movies,\nconversations with members of the opposite sex... but I'd say that's\nquite a corpus of evidence.\n\nSorry, that was OT, I know. Just a personal pet peeve." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems not all women agrees with you:\n\nhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml?xml=/arts/2006/09/14/bamen14.xml&site=6&page=0\n\nAs the above will almost certainly get mangled by email, this is the same \npage:\n\nhttp://tinyurl.com/mkela" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061020034847.86128.qmail@web54409.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-10-20T03:48:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": "<200610191759.23091.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with you that our emotions and our thought-processes may not be as different as they have been portrayed. Our experiences, however, are far more divergent than the tools with which we process them. I also believe that the best women writers, generally being more empathetic and observant, can create better male characters than male writers create female characters.\n\nSo Wolfe could probably create more strong central female characters, but perhaps he feels that he would be writing a male character in a female body, not because he doesn't believe there are strong women, but because he doesn't know how to write them well, and would revert to the strengths he is familiar with.\n\nI did think that many of the women in Castleview were convincingly spun.\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Daniel D Jones \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:59:22 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thursday 19 October 2006 15:42, Hmpf MacSlow wrote:\nAny realistic man knows that he does not understand what it is like\nto be a woman - portraits he paints of her are from the outside looking\nin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, as a woman who has spent most of her life reading books\nwritten by men, from a male perspective, and hasn't found that\nperspective mind-bogglingly alien, I'd say the differences between\nmen and women are somewhat (or, depending on which depiction we're\nactually talking about, often even *hugely*) exaggerated. Neither our\nemotions nor our thought processes seem greatly different to me. Of\ncourse, I can only go by what I know from literature, movies,\nconversations with members of the opposite sex... but I'd say that's\nquite a corpus of evidence.\n\nSorry, that was OT, I know. Just a personal pet peeve." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems not all women agrees with you:\n\nhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml?xml=/arts/2006/09/14/bamen14.xml&site=6&page=0\n\nAs the above will almost certainly get mangled by email, this is the same \npage:\n\nhttp://tinyurl.com/mkela" } ] }, { "message_id": "<453852F1.4030806@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-20T04:39:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": "<678808681.20061019193557@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stanislaus wrote:\nHello Jeff,\n\nThursday, October 19, 2006, 7:02:46 AM, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jack Redelfs wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I just don't see how we can neatly say that a\nchivalrous author will refuse to put his female\ncharacters in harms way. That's like saying only\nan anti-semite would write novels about Auschwitz,\nisn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If an author complusively wrote novels about Jews being tortured and \nkilled, I'd at least suspect him of anti-semitism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a technical term for this kind of criticism = \"the poetic of a\npolice informer.\"\n\nI don't think the aim of reading books is to find some crime to accuse\nauthor of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it's not, but I'd be a pretty superficial reader if I never wondered \nwhy an author writes what he writes." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4538560D.1000605@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-20T04:52:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe: Misogynist? and accessibility", "in_reply_to": "<20061019182353.26473.qmail@web54410.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nathan Spears wrote:\nIf an author complusively wrote novels about Jews being tortured and \nkilled, I'd at least suspect him of anti-semitism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have good reason to suspect Elie Wiesel of anti-Semitism, I suppose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please, there is some considerable distance between suspect and convict. \nRather than doing it compulsively, Wiesel was reluctant to do it at all \nwithout considerable outside encouragement." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }