{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4739", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4739, "subject": "Are old questions OK?", "messages": 15, "voices": 9, "first": "2006-10-20T09:21:41+00:00", "last": "2006-10-22T04:09:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Scott K", "address": "scott at skatemonk.com" }, "date": "2006-10-20T09:21:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi all-\n I only recently joined the list, having first waited until I'd \nfinished \"Return To The Whorl\" to avoid any spoilers. I've chimed in a \ncouple of times about this and that, the comic book version and \nwhatnot, but have been shy about posing new questions which may have \ncome up a million times before. I have come to the conclusion that, \nlike in scuba diving, there are really very few truly dumb questions, \nthough on a list like this they may have been discussed before ad \nnauseum. Therefore I feel emboldened to ask a few questions of my own, \nstarting with (as a somewhat basic starting point):\n-What's the general reception in these rarified Wolfe circles of the \nBorsky book, \"Solar Labyrinth?\" I found it an interesting read for the \nfirst few chapters, having skipped to areas I found of most interest, \nbut on reading the whole thing through I'm dead set against some of his \nassertations, and thinking that he's seeing too much into everything \nfor his own aggrandizement, i.e. \"the Navigator was JFK.\" What? That \nseems to me the most silly thing in the book, though overall he brings \nup a lot of good points, but I've never seen the Wolfe series dissected \nand discussed by anyone before. I know the Urth archives go back a long \nways but I'm not sifting through all of that at once. Ultan's place on \na day pass! Most of the friends I've recommended it to had trouble \ngetting through it, or they read it as straight sci-fi on the surface \nand didn't notice any of the finer details, mostly waiting for the next \nsword fight or monster, or whatever. I've just never heard it discussed \nmuch, but I feel I have a good foundation now in some of the book's \nbasic mysteries, thanks in part no doubt to the Borsky book, but what \ndo you all think of his work overall? I think he raises a lot of good \nquestions but some of his conclusions are kinda crazy to the point \nwhere it seems that every minor character with a scrap of dialogue has \na blood tie to Sev or the Autarch, or some secret circle that was never \nreally mentioned in the text (\"magicians\"). So, let the flaming begin- \ncomments, anyone? Besides, the misogyny streak is kinda starting to \nbore me and I never read Dr. Island, but thinking of picking up Peace \nand Doors...\n-Scott K." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1161358853.30152.273827084@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2006-10-20T15:40:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:21:41 -0700, \"Scott K\" \nsaid:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the misogyny streak is kinda starting to \nbore me " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aw, shucks. Just when I was about to upload my Wolfe pastiche, \"The\nShapechanger and the Prostitute.\" \n\nBut seriously, I'd love to see an interviewer ask Wolfe about (or an\nacademic address) this fascination he seems to have with prostitutes,\nwhich begins in FIFTH HEAD and runs all the way through to the latest\nLatro novel, where, once again, we are \"graced\" with yet another\nlow-rent girl as a major character. For my money, this comes very close\nto Wolfe's jumping the shark moment and he's now looming dangerously on\nself-parody.\n\nI also find it curious that no one has mentioned the skiffy premise in\nTHERE ARE DOORS yet: i.e., mate with women even once, fellows, and\nyou'll die -- now there's an inducement to chastity! Though the tone and\nstyle are different, this is something I expect more from the likes of\nRichard Calder than a happily-married father of four children.\n\nThen there's Wolfe's barbed attitude toward feminism, present in both\nhis non-fiction and some of his shorter work like \"In Looking Glass\nCastle.\" Methinks he's not particularly fond of it.\n\nAnd lastly, if Wolfe's work appealed equally to men and women, wouldn't\nwe be likely to see more of the fairer sex in this august forum? I don't\nremember seeing any statistical breakdown, but it seems to me there have\nnever been more than one or two women posting at any particular time,\neven during the list's heyday. \n\n " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-20T18:52:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "<1161358853.30152.273827084@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Scott K asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's the general reception in these rarified Wolfe circles of the Borsky \nbook, \"Solar Labyrinth?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've heard venom and derision heaped on Borsky by some members of the old \nguard from here. I applaud him for daring to raise a lot of questions about \nBotNS and publish outside the confines of this list. My main complaint \nwould be that he didn't stick around in here long enough to debate some of \nhis ideas and stay open to correction and/or refinement.\n\nI've seen others single out the example that bothers you the most, \"i.e. the \nNavigator was JFK.\" I'm too young to remember the Kennedy funeral, but I \nappreciate Borski's guess because nobody else ever, that I know of, has the \nslightest clue what \"the Navigator\" story (told by prisoners in the \nantechamber) was about. It is incomprehensible to me that Wolfe meant \nnothing by it...or that it is a red herring. The best working hypothesis \ngets my vote until something better comes along. If Borski and Wolfe saw \nthe same video clips of the JFK funeral then, maybe that's it.\n\nI'm also accepting of this hypothesis because it fits a theme of 60's pop \nculture references I think I see in BotNS which include the movie Swiss \nFamily Robinson, TV shows Gilligan's Island and Lost In Space (all 3 based \nloosely on Robison Crusoe), facelift surgery, drug culture and of course \nNeil Armstrong on the moon. Anyone else see others?\n(I reject another proposed candidate: radiation warning /fallout shelter \nsigns because I think the identification was based on an incorrect \ninterpretation of the term \"teratoid symbols\".)\n\nPersonally I think Borsky wasn't comprehensive enough in trying to identify \nSeverian's family members but way waaaaay too aggressive in applying \ncryptonymic analysis to make hundreds of very hard to swallow links between \njust about everything and everybody in the story. But once again, I'll \npraise him for having the gall to publish his ideas and increase the \ninvolvement of old and newer Wolfe fans.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-20T20:40:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not recall anyone \"heaping\" \"venom\" or \"derision\" on Borski. Borski was \na contributor to this list for a while, if I recall correctly, and \nwell-liked by people here - even those of us who think his theories are too \nmuch of a stretch. This does not mean we have to accept his theories, or \nobligate us to praise them for having merits we don't think they have. Nor \ndoes it incline us to accept at face value, on the basis of Borski's \nauthority, anything a poster wants to use to argue their own points. \nArguments from authority are shady business anyway, and when the position \nbeing argued is controversial, such reasoning is not going to get a warm \nreception.\n\nAs far as \"Solar Labyrinth\" goes, I think I posted my thoughts on it some \ntime ago, and they may (or may not) be in the archives. The book has value, \neven though I don't agree with most of its conclusions (or many of its \npremises), if for no other reason than the fact that Borski has been very \nattentive to the text and brings up many thought-provoking points that may \nhave passed unnoticed, or been forgotten, on your first (or second, or \nthird, or fourth) reading of the series." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Scott K asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the general reception in these rarified Wolfe circles of the \nBorsky\nbook, \"Solar Labyrinth?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've heard venom and derision heaped on Borsky by some members of the old\nguard from here. I applaud him for daring to raise a lot of questions \nabout\nBotNS and publish outside the confines of this list. My main complaint\nwould be that he didn't stick around in here long enough to debate some of\nhis ideas and stay open to correction and/or refinement.\n\nI've seen others single out the example that bothers you the most, \"i.e. \nthe\nNavigator was JFK.\" I'm too young to remember the Kennedy funeral, but I\nappreciate Borski's guess because nobody else ever, that I know of, has the\nslightest clue what \"the Navigator\" story (told by prisoners in the\nantechamber) was about. It is incomprehensible to me that Wolfe meant\nnothing by it...or that it is a red herring. The best working hypothesis\ngets my vote until something better comes along. If Borski and Wolfe saw\nthe same video clips of the JFK funeral then, maybe that's it.\n\nI'm also accepting of this hypothesis because it fits a theme of 60's pop\nculture references I think I see in BotNS which include the movie Swiss\nFamily Robinson, TV shows Gilligan's Island and Lost In Space (all 3 based\nloosely on Robison Crusoe), facelift surgery, drug culture and of course\nNeil Armstrong on the moon. Anyone else see others?\n(I reject another proposed candidate: radiation warning /fallout shelter\nsigns because I think the identification was based on an incorrect\ninterpretation of the term \"teratoid symbols\".)\n\nPersonally I think Borsky wasn't comprehensive enough in trying to identify\nSeverian's family members but way waaaaay too aggressive in applying\ncryptonymic analysis to make hundreds of very hard to swallow links between\njust about everything and everybody in the story. But once again, I'll\npraise him for having the gall to publish his ideas and increase the\ninvolvement of old and newer Wolfe fans.\n\n-bsharp\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nStay in touch with old friends and meet new ones with Windows Live Spaces\nhttp://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<044E0A28-C94C-46AF-BA50-90F61D77741D@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-20T22:11:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 20, 2006, at 11:52 AM, b sharp wrote:\n of course\nNeil Armstrong on the moon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The picture isn't actually Armstrong, and as far as I can tell it's \nnot a faithful description of *any* of the Apollo photographs. I \nremember trying to figure out which picture it was a few months ago \nand coming up dry: I couldn't find any earthrises taken from the \nLunar surface with an astronaut and a flag in the frame.\n\nNot that I don't agree that it's *supposed* to be an Apollo \nastronaut; I just think that Wolfe didn't have the source photograph \nat hand and conflated several (for instance,\nhttp://history.nasa.gov/ap11ann/kippsphotos/apollo.html\nhas an Earthrise and a Buzz Aldrin Saluting the Flag picture. Make \none the background of the other and you pretty much have the \ndescribed picture.)\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4539A205.7090107@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-21T04:28:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "<044E0A28-C94C-46AF-BA50-90F61D77741D@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Oct 20, 2006, at 11:52 AM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " of course\nNeil Armstrong on the moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The picture isn't actually Armstrong, and as far as I can tell it's \nnot a faithful description of *any* of the Apollo photographs. I \nremember trying to figure out which picture it was a few months ago \nand coming up dry: I couldn't find any earthrises taken from the \nLunar surface with an astronaut and a flag in the frame.\n\nNot that I don't agree that it's *supposed* to be an Apollo \nastronaut; I just think that Wolfe didn't have the source photograph \nat hand and conflated several (for instance,\nhttp://history.nasa.gov/ap11ann/kippsphotos/apollo.html\nhas an Earthrise and a Buzz Aldrin Saluting the Flag picture. Make \none the background of the other and you pretty much have the \ndescribed picture.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "other possibilities are:\n* a later Apollo mission\n* subtle difference in previous universe cycle\n* the picture is a painting based on the orignal photographs, possibly \nvia multiple degrees of reproduction and copying" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5DB89AE2-7BB0-402D-B7BF-0D703DC11C79@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-21T06:55:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "<4539A205.7090107@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 20, 2006, at 9:28 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nother possibilities are:\n* a later Apollo mission" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's an Apollo 16 earthrise too, but, again, no astronauts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "* subtle difference in previous universe cycle\n* the picture is a painting based on the orignal photographs, possibly\nvia multiple degrees of reproduction and copying" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "#3 seems most likely. I mean, \"Astronaut with earthrise\" IS a better \ncomposition.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061021092038.72214.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "godel2escher2bach at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-10-21T09:20:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "<5DB89AE2-7BB0-402D-B7BF-0D703DC11C79@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\nThere is an Apollo 17 shot of the flag, and astronaut\nand the Earth. However it is more of an upwards angle\nshot, and does not show the lunar horizon.\n\nI'm pretty sure it is one one of the Apollo picture\nsites. I'll dig around and post a link if I can find\nit.\n\n\n\n Fred Kiesche (FPK3)\n \n My books are water; those of great geniuses are wine. Everybody drinks water. (Mark Twain, \"Notebook\")\nOver 7,000 postings served! See The Eternal Golden Braid (http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/ ).\n\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<453A11E5.1080508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-21T12:26:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "<5DB89AE2-7BB0-402D-B7BF-0D703DC11C79@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Oct 20, 2006, at 9:28 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "other possibilities are:\n* a later Apollo mission" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's an Apollo 16 earthrise too, but, again, no astronauts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see where the ms mentions an earthrise?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-22T00:59:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "<453A11E5.1080508@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 21, 2006, at 5:26 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Oct 20, 2006, at 9:28 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "other possibilities are:\n* a later Apollo mission" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's an Apollo 16 earthrise too, but, again, no astronauts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see where the ms mentions an earthrise?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I, uh, don't have the books here...but I thought the picture \nwas astronaut, standing on moon by flag, with Earth in background.\n\nMaybe it's my memory that's faulty.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<453AD4F8.8050203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-22T02:18:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Oct 21, 2006, at 5:26 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Oct 20, 2006, at 9:28 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "other possibilities are:\n* a later Apollo mission\nThere's an Apollo 16 earthrise too, but, again, no astronauts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see where the ms mentions an earthrise?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I, uh, don't have the books here...but I thought the picture \nwas astronaut, standing on moon by flag, with Earth in background.\n\nMaybe it's my memory that's faulty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Amazon to the rescue:\n\n\t\"The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in a \ndesolate landscape. It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a \nstrange, stiff banner. The visor of this figure's helmet was entirely of \ngold, without eye slits or ventilation; in its polished surface the \ndeathly desert could be seen in reflection, and nothing more.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061022033922.A0319DA824@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-10-22T03:39:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "<453AD4F8.8050203@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:18:32 +1000 Jeff Wilson \nwrote:\nAmazon to the rescue:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a \ndesolate landscape. It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a \nstrange, stiff banner. The visor of this figure's helmet was \nentirely of \ngold, without eye slits or ventilation; in its polished surface \nthe \ndeathly desert could be seen in reflection, and nothing more.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But also: \"There's your blue Urth coming over his shoulder again, \nfresh as the Autarch's fish.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2AC109AD-E158-42CE-97E0-83F6A000EF3C@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2006-10-22T03:51:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "<20061022033922.A0319DA824@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Astronaut/painter Alan Bean has several near misses:\n\nhttp://galleryone.com/bean_prints.htm\n\nI can't find one with all the elements Wolfe mentions, but perhaps \nthere's one somewhere in Bean's oeuvre." } ] }, { "message_id": "<453AECFD.5050301@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-22T04:01:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "<20061022033922.A0319DA824@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\nOn Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:18:32 +1000 Jeff Wilson \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Amazon to the rescue:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\t\"The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "a \ndesolate landscape. It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a \nstrange, stiff banner. The visor of this figure's helmet was \nentirely of \ngold, without eye slits or ventilation; in its polished surface \nthe \ndeathly desert could be seen in reflection, and nothing more.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But also: \"There's your blue Urth coming over his shoulder again, \nfresh as the Autarch's fish.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting; maybe it's a Fresnel lens dual image, or even some more \nexotic form of changing picture." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<453AEEF7.8030704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-10-22T04:09:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are old questions OK?", "in_reply_to": "<2AC109AD-E158-42CE-97E0-83F6A000EF3C@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nAstronaut/painter Alan Bean has several near misses:\n\nhttp://galleryone.com/bean_prints.htm\n\nI can't find one with all the elements Wolfe mentions, but perhaps \nthere's one somewhere in Bean's oeuvre." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Straightening Our Stripes\" is very close indeed, but unfortunately was \npainted in 1985." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }