Subject: (urth) Are old questions OK?

From: Scott K <scott at skatemonk.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:21:41 +0000

Hi all-
   I only recently joined the list, having first waited until I'd 
finished "Return To The Whorl" to avoid any spoilers. I've chimed in a 
couple of times about this and that, the comic book version and 
whatnot, but have been shy about posing new questions which may have 
come up a million times before. I have come to the conclusion that, 
like in scuba diving, there are really very few truly dumb questions, 
though on a list like this they may have been discussed before ad 
nauseum. Therefore I feel emboldened to ask a few questions of my own, 
starting with (as a somewhat basic starting point):
-What's the general reception in these rarified Wolfe circles of the 
Borsky book, "Solar Labyrinth?" I found it an interesting read for the 
first few chapters, having skipped to areas I found of most interest, 
but on reading the whole thing through I'm dead set against some of his 
assertations, and thinking that he's seeing too much into everything 
for his own aggrandizement, i.e. "the Navigator was JFK." What? That 
seems to me the most silly thing in the book, though overall he brings 
up a lot of good points, but I've never seen the Wolfe series dissected 
and discussed by anyone before. I know the Urth archives go back a long 
ways but I'm not sifting through all of that at once. Ultan's place on 
a day pass! Most of the friends I've recommended it to had trouble 
getting through it, or they read it as straight sci-fi on the surface 
and didn't notice any of the finer details, mostly waiting for the next 
sword fight or monster, or whatever. I've just never heard it discussed 
much, but I feel I have a good foundation now in some of the book's 
basic mysteries, thanks in part no doubt to the Borsky book, but what 
do you all think of his work overall? I think he raises a lot of good 
questions but some of his conclusions are kinda crazy to the point 
where it seems that every minor character with a scrap of dialogue has 
a blood tie to Sev or the Autarch, or some secret circle that was never 
really mentioned in the text ("magicians"). So, let the flaming begin- 
comments, anyone? Besides, the misogyny streak is kinda starting to 
bore me and I never read Dr. Island, but thinking of picking up Peace 
and Doors...
-Scott K.
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From: Rex Lycanthrosaurus <lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:40:53 +0000

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:21:41 -0700, "Scott K" <scott at skatemonk.com>
said:
 
>the misogyny streak is kinda starting to 
> bore me 

Aw, shucks. Just when I was about to upload my Wolfe pastiche, "The
Shapechanger and the Prostitute." <gr>

But seriously, I'd love to see an interviewer ask Wolfe about (or an
academic address) this fascination he seems to have with prostitutes,
which begins in FIFTH HEAD and runs all the way through to the latest
Latro novel, where, once again, we are "graced" with yet another
low-rent girl as a major character. For my money, this comes very close
to Wolfe's jumping the shark moment and he's now looming dangerously on
self-parody.

I also find it curious that no one has mentioned the skiffy premise in
THERE ARE DOORS yet: i.e., mate with women even once, fellows, and
you'll die -- now there's an inducement to chastity! Though the tone and
style are different, this is something I expect more from the likes of
Richard Calder than a happily-married father of four children.

Then there's Wolfe's barbed attitude toward feminism, present in both
his non-fiction and some of his shorter work like "In Looking Glass
Castle." Methinks he's not particularly fond of it.

And lastly, if Wolfe's work appealed equally to men and women, wouldn't
we be likely to see more of the fairer sex in this august forum? I don't
remember seeing any statistical breakdown, but it seems to me there have
never been more than one or two women posting at any particular time,
even during the list's heyday.     

-- 
  Rex Lycanthrosaurus
  lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 18:52:52 +0000

Scott K asks:
>What's the general reception in these rarified Wolfe circles of the Borsky 
>book, "Solar Labyrinth?"

I've heard venom and derision heaped on Borsky by some members of the old 
guard from here.  I applaud him for daring to raise a lot of questions about 
BotNS and publish outside the confines of this list.  My main complaint 
would be that he didn't stick around in here long enough to debate some of 
his ideas and stay open to correction and/or refinement.

I've seen others single out the example that bothers you the most, "i.e. the 
Navigator was JFK."  I'm too young to remember the Kennedy funeral, but I 
appreciate Borski's guess because nobody else ever, that I know of, has the 
slightest clue what "the Navigator" story (told by prisoners in the 
antechamber) was about.  It is incomprehensible to me that Wolfe meant 
nothing by it...or that it is a red herring.  The best working hypothesis 
gets my vote until something better comes along.   If Borski and Wolfe saw 
the same video clips of the JFK funeral then, maybe that's it.

I'm also accepting of this hypothesis because it fits a theme of 60's pop 
culture references I think I see in BotNS which include the movie Swiss 
Family Robinson, TV shows Gilligan's Island and Lost In Space (all 3 based 
loosely on Robison Crusoe), facelift surgery, drug culture and of course 
Neil Armstrong on the moon.  Anyone else see others?
(I reject another proposed candidate:  radiation warning /fallout shelter 
signs because I think the identification was based on an incorrect 
interpretation of the term "teratoid symbols".)

Personally I think Borsky wasn't comprehensive enough in trying to identify 
Severian's family members but way waaaaay too aggressive in applying 
cryptonymic analysis to make hundreds of very hard to swallow links between 
just about everything and everybody in the story.  But once again, I'll 
praise him for having the gall to publish his ideas and increase the 
involvement of old and newer Wolfe fans.

-bsharp

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 20:40:29 +0000

I do not recall anyone "heaping" "venom" or "derision" on Borski. Borski was 
a contributor to this list for a while, if I recall correctly, and 
well-liked by people here - even those of us who think his theories are too 
much of a stretch. This does not mean we have to accept his theories, or 
obligate us to praise them for having merits we don't think they have. Nor 
does it incline us to accept at face value, on the basis of Borski's 
authority, anything a poster wants to use to argue their own points. 
Arguments from authority are shady business anyway, and when the position 
being argued is controversial, such reasoning is not going to get a warm 
reception.

As far as "Solar Labyrinth" goes, I think I posted my thoughts on it some 
time ago, and they may (or may not) be in the archives. The book has value, 
even though I don't agree with most of its conclusions (or many of its 
premises), if for no other reason than the fact that Borski has been very 
attentive to the text and brings up many thought-provoking points that may 
have passed unnoticed, or been forgotten, on your first (or second, or 
third, or fourth) reading of the series.

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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 22:11:53 +0000

On Oct 20, 2006, at 11:52 AM, b sharp wrote:
>  of course
> Neil Armstrong on the moon.

The picture isn't actually Armstrong, and as far as I can tell it's  
not a faithful description of *any* of the Apollo photographs.  I  
remember trying to figure out which picture it was a few months ago  
and coming up dry: I couldn't find any earthrises taken from the  
Lunar surface with an astronaut and a flag in the frame.

Not that I don't agree that it's *supposed* to be an Apollo  
astronaut; I just think that Wolfe didn't have the source photograph  
at hand and conflated several (for instance,
http://history.nasa.gov/ap11ann/kippsphotos/apollo.html
has an Earthrise and a Buzz Aldrin Saluting the Flag picture.  Make  
one the background of the other and you pretty much have the  
described picture.)

Adam

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 04:28:53 +0000

> one the background of the other and you pretty much have the  

other possibilities are:
* a later Apollo mission
* subtle difference in previous universe cycle
* the picture is a painting based on the orignal photographs, possibly 
via multiple degrees of reproduction and copying

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 06:55:27 +0000

> * a later Apollo mission

There's an Apollo 16 earthrise too, but, again, no astronauts.

> via multiple degrees of reproduction and copying

#3 seems most likely.  I mean, "Astronaut with earthrise" IS a better  
composition.

Adam

---

From: Fred Kiesche <godel2escher2bach at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 09:20:38 +0000

There is an Apollo 17 shot of the flag, and astronaut
and the Earth. However it is more of an upwards angle
shot, and does not show the lunar horizon.

I'm pretty sure it is one one of the Apollo picture
sites. I'll dig around and post a link if I can find
it.

          Fred Kiesche (FPK3)
  
  My books are water; those of great geniuses are wine. Everybody drinks water. (Mark Twain, "Notebook")
Over 7,000 postings served! See The Eternal Golden Braid (http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/ ).

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:26:13 +0000

> There's an Apollo 16 earthrise too, but, again, no astronauts.

I don't see where the ms mentions an earthrise?

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 00:59:39 +0000

> I don't see where the ms mentions an earthrise?

Well, I, uh, don't have the books here...but I thought the picture  
was astronaut, standing on moon by flag, with Earth in background.

Maybe it's my memory that's faulty.

Adam

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:18:32 +0000

> Maybe it's my memory that's faulty.

Amazon to the rescue:

	"The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in a 
desolate landscape. It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a 
strange, stiff banner. The visor of this figure's helmet was entirely of 
gold, without eye slits or ventilation; in its polished surface the 
deathly desert could be seen in reflection, and nothing more."

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 03:39:22 +0000

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:18:32 +1000 Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> 
wrote:
>>Amazon to the rescue:
>
>	"The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in 

>a 

But also: "There's your blue Urth coming over his shoulder again, 
fresh as the Autarch's fish."

---

From: Tim Walters <walters at doubtfulpalace.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 03:51:21 +0000

Astronaut/painter Alan Bean has several near misses:

http://galleryone.com/bean_prints.htm

I can't find one with all the elements Wolfe mentions, but perhaps  
there's one somewhere in Bean's oeuvre.

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 04:01:01 +0000

> fresh as the Autarch's fish."

Interesting; maybe it's a Fresnel lens dual image, or even some more 
exotic form of changing picture.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 04:09:27 +0000

> there's one somewhere in Bean's oeuvre.

"Straightening Our Stripes" is very close indeed, but unfortunately was 
painted in 1985.