{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4761", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4761, "subject": "Jolenta the beautiful via Talos", "messages": 8, "voices": 7, "first": "2006-10-31T06:03:43+00:00", "last": "2006-11-05T05:50:07+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1f98c9e12d1f85462c6f2d83584a6ae5@skatemonk.com>", "from": { "name": "Scott K", "address": "scott at skatemonk.com" }, "date": "2006-10-31T06:03:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jolenta the beautiful via Talos", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Di Giacomo notes: Talos's surgical skill made Jolenta \nirresistably attractive to everyone, even Severian's dead grandmother.\n\n I do like this idea, whatever the true source of Sev's notion of a \ntryst between Dorcas and Jolenta, or whether it happened or not. \nJolenta was a walking aphrodesiac to many, including Jonas and the \ncash-holding members of any potential audience. Instant Marilyn Monroe \ntreatment, anyone? Sure to increase your box office. However, I think \nit is wrong to attribute Jolenta's beauty to any surgical skills of Dr. \nTalos. That would be a case of explaining his abilities in terms of our \nown age, i.e., he is a doctor so it may have been a kind of plastic \nsurgery as we know today, or something faster and more advanced. But \nthe foxy doctor does say after meeting the thin waitress with \nstraggling hair at breakfast, \"I will make you beautiful because we \nrequire you as an actress. It is one of my powers,\" and more \nimportantly, \"...I must cast the glamour and teach you your lines, all \nin a day.\"\n Though not in common usage today (raise the Wolfean caution flag), \nthe term glamour didn't always mean mere beauty or celebrity as it does \nto us, but it is a kind of illusory spell that the faeries of old might \nuse to make a handful of flower petals seem like gold coins to a human, \nor as Zeus might use to look like a mortal woman's husband so he could \ngain her bed for a night. As we see later, the glamour rapidly fades \nfrom poor Jolenta, at a terrible cost to her mortal span. The hidden \ncost in the deal, she was made to burn more brightly, though more \nbriefly. She did not have the basic muscular strength to carry her \nenhanced frame's fuller thighs and breasts etc., and tired much more \neasily than someone who'd developed them naturally. I believe the \nDoctor may have cast this glamour through some potion or advanced \nbio-mutagen related to Baldanders' weird experiments in his castle \nlaboratory (the captive boy).\n-Scott Kimball" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-10-31T13:47:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jolenta the beautiful via Talos", "in_reply_to": "<1f98c9e12d1f85462c6f2d83584a6ae5@skatemonk.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Scott K writes: (snips)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I think it is wrong to attribute Jolenta's beauty to any surgical \nskills of Dr. Talos. That >would be a case of explaining his abilities in \nterms of our own age, i.e., he is a doctor so it may >have been a kind of \nplastic surgery as we know today, or something faster and more advanced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the term glamour didn't always mean mere beauty or celebrity as it does to \nus, but it is a kind of >illusory spell. I believe the Doctor may have \ncast this glamour through some potion or advanced bio-mutagen" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some good points are raised. I'll mention that the scene with The Cumaean, \nat the end of Claw, spells out in rather specific detail what was done to \nJolenta. As I remember, silk threads were sewn into her hair, her teeth \nground down and capped, healthening broths cleared up her skin and metal \nwires and bands were attached to her skeleton. The potion (the effect of \nwhich is lost as she loses blood) redistributes her flesh. Perhaps her \nlarge eyes were achieved through a belladonna type poison, as it was for \nThecla as a girl. Definitely a faster process than whatever we might have \ntoday- Jolenta was ready for the stage a few days after her treatment.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-11-03T12:23:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jolenta the beautiful via Talos", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Scott K writes: (snips)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I think it is wrong to attribute Jolenta's beauty to any surgical\nskills of Dr. Talos. That >would be a case of explaining his abilities in\nterms of our own age, i.e., he is a doctor so it may >have been a kind of\nplastic surgery as we know today, or something faster and more advanced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the term glamour didn't always mean mere beauty or celebrity as it does to\nus, but it is a kind of >illusory spell. I believe the Doctor may have\ncast this glamour through some potion or advanced bio-mutagen" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very interesting, thank you. I had remembered the \"adornments\" Talos had \nmade to Jolenta. It had always seemed to me that a good deal of her \nattractiveness came from the confidence that she gained under Talos. Why? \nI well remember stories of a young and slightly mousy looking lady bundled \nup in loose clothes going up to people on the streets of New York City and \nasking, \"Would you like to meet Marilyn Monroe?\" And if the answer was yes, \n throwing back her hood and turning on her persona with a big smile. This \nwas while Norma Jean was studying with Lee Strasberg.\n\nWith her Sun(Talos) leaving her, there was no energy left for her to \n\"shower?\" on the rest of the world." } ] }, { "message_id": "<10611031747.AA03287@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2006-11-03T17:47:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jolenta the beautiful via Talos", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It had always seemed to me that a good deal of her \nattractiveness came from the confidence that she gained under Talos." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian sees \"wires and bands of metal\" that were placed under Jolenta's\nflesh. Why would Talos bother with that if he could make her beautiful\nwith a \"glamor\" or by raising her self esteem?\n\nWhat I have always wondered is where Talos took her to perform this\ninvasive surgery, and how she recovered so quickly. I suppose it's\npossible that the flying saucer descended and Talos did the work in there,\nbut it would have been conspicuous, to say the least." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5a2709fbbf46c4c39972375824f0e4b2@skatemonk.com>", "from": { "name": "Scott K", "address": "scott at skatemonk.com" }, "date": "2006-11-04T12:11:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jolenta the beautiful via Talos", "in_reply_to": "<10611031747.AA03287@slack.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I have to admit I forgot about the wires, metal and such- I'm just \nre-reading Conciliator now, first time in about 6 years. Recently \nfinished Return To Whorl and Solar Labyrinth (and joined this group), \nso I'm plunging in from the beginning again, like that swim in fetid \nGyoll, so long ago. I stand corrected by both of you who posted about \nthe metal and hair implants.\n But surely it is more than just surgery at work (whatever passes for \nsurgery in that far-flung time to those of a class to have access to \nBaldanders' or Hierodule level of technology), so that the overall \neffect is as a glamour in the old sense, an illusory or fast \nbiochemical enhancement as if by magic.\n I wonder if Talos could use the machine technology that made Jonas' \noriginal mech body, which was so much lighter than flesh. Or do I \nremember somewhere that Sev says Jolenta was rather heavy? Perhaps \nTalos' enhancement are not as refined as Jonas-tech, or uses more \ncommon iron parts or something. Not that there's as much metal used on \nJolenta, much of it is clearly flesh.\n-Scott Kimball\n\nSeverian sees \"wires and bands of metal\" that were placed under \nJolenta's\nflesh. Why would Talos bother with that if he could make her beautiful\nwith a \"glamor\" or by raising her self esteem?\n\nWhat I have always wondered is where Talos took her to perform this\ninvasive surgery, and how she recovered so quickly. I suppose it's\npossible that the flying saucer descended and Talos did the work in \nthere,\nbut it would have been conspicuous, to say the least." } ] }, { "message_id": "<19ee41770611041904m5d58a416g7f5985728d8959d6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jack Redelfs", "address": "jackredelfs at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-11-05T03:04:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jolenta the beautiful via Talos", "in_reply_to": "<5a2709fbbf46c4c39972375824f0e4b2@skatemonk.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I have always wondered is where Talos took her to perform this\ninvasive surgery, and how she recovered so quickly. I suppose it's\npossible that the flying saucer descended and Talos did the work in there,\nbut it would have been conspicuous, to say the least." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, but I was always struck by how Talos treated the cacogens with\nfamiliarity in _Sword_, more like colleagues than patrons." } ] }, { "message_id": "<51DC9CCE-7EA4-4390-8C4F-EB47F799086F@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-11-05T04:29:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski", "in_reply_to": "<19ee41770611041904m5d58a416g7f5985728d8959d6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First: _Sidon_ arrived today. Haven't opened it yet.\n\nSecond: Borski, _Long and Short_. One of the essays is atrociously \nedited: he keeps saying \"Pendelton's\" for the plural. His editor \nshould have caught this. Also, he doesn't mention, that I noticed, \none of the big hints in _5HC_ onomastics: \"Phaedrus\" means \"Wolf\"; \n\"Phaedria\" is therefore pretty obvious. I'm not all that far into \nit; I think he might be right about the werewolf thing.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1162705807.8968.275026520@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2006-11-05T05:50:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski", "in_reply_to": "<51DC9CCE-7EA4-4390-8C4F-EB47F799086F@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 22:29:21 -0600, \"Adam Thornton\" said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second: Borski, _Long and Short_. One of the essays is atrociously \nedited: he keeps saying \"Pendelton's\" for the plural. His editor \nshould have caught this. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Self-published books do not have editors--not that that makes much\ndifference given the overall atrocious copyediting of Mr. Wolfe's works\nby alleged professionals. Remember the Garvaon/Garsecg confusion in TWK\nor the amphisbaena whose \"one *hand* is dead\" in _tBotNS_? If memory\nserves, _Soldier of Sidon_ was originally scheduled to be published on\n10-17, but then had its release date pushed back by two weeks; was it, I\nwondered, because newly discovered typos needed to be corrected? (Kudos\nto the TOR design team at any rate -- this is easily Wolfe's\nbest-looking book.)\n\nAlso, he doesn't mention, that I noticed, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "one of the big hints in _5HC_ onomastics: \"Phaedrus\" means \"Wolf\"; \n\"Phaedria\" is therefore pretty obvious. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Groan.* Absolutely not true, and yet it's accepted by millions of\nreaders because Robert Pirsig makes the claim in _Zen and the Art of\nMotorcycle Maintenance_. (An interesting parallel is Mark Twain's\nassertion that mummies were used for fuel in Egyptian trains -- a canard\nthat is still accepted today as fact.) Pirsig corrects the mistake in\nhis most recent introduction to _Zen_; rather, if memory serves (since I\ncan't find the book), Phaedrus means \"light.\" \n\nAnd while the subject of werewolves has been broached, I wonder if Gene\nWolfe is fond of Warren Zevon's music, and especially his \"Werewolves of\nLondon.\" The name 'Zevon' apparently derives from the Russian Zevotosky,\n\"Son of the Wolf.' Ahooooo!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail..." } ] } ] }