Subject: (urth) Jolenta the beautiful via Talos

From: Scott K <scott at skatemonk.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 06:03:43 +0000

David Di Giacomo notes: Talos's surgical skill made Jolenta 
irresistably attractive to everyone, even Severian's dead grandmother.

   I do like this idea, whatever the true source of Sev's notion of a 
tryst between Dorcas and Jolenta, or whether it happened or not. 
Jolenta was a walking aphrodesiac to many, including Jonas and the 
cash-holding members of any potential audience. Instant Marilyn Monroe 
treatment, anyone? Sure to increase your box office. However, I think 
it is wrong to attribute Jolenta's beauty to any surgical skills of Dr. 
Talos. That would be a case of explaining his abilities in terms of our 
own age, i.e., he is a doctor so it may have been a kind of plastic 
surgery as we know today, or something faster and more advanced. But 
the foxy doctor does say after meeting the thin waitress with 
straggling hair at breakfast, "I will make you beautiful because we 
require you as an actress. It is one of my powers," and more 
importantly, "...I must cast the glamour and teach you your lines, all 
in a day."
   Though not in common usage today (raise the Wolfean caution flag), 
the term glamour didn't always mean mere beauty or celebrity as it does 
to us, but it is a kind of illusory spell that the faeries of old might 
use to make a handful of flower petals seem like gold coins to a human, 
or as Zeus might use to look like a mortal woman's husband so he could 
gain her bed for a night. As we see later, the glamour rapidly fades 
from poor Jolenta, at a terrible cost to her mortal span. The hidden 
cost in the deal, she was made to burn more brightly, though more 
briefly. She did not have the basic muscular strength to carry her 
enhanced frame's fuller thighs and breasts etc., and tired much more 
easily than someone who'd developed them naturally. I believe the 
Doctor may have cast this glamour through some potion or advanced 
bio-mutagen related to Baldanders' weird experiments in his castle 
laboratory (the captive boy).
-Scott Kimball
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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:47:29 +0000

Scott K writes: (snips)

>However, I think it is wrong to attribute Jolenta's beauty to any surgical 
>skills of Dr. Talos. That >would be a case of explaining his abilities in 
>terms of our own age, i.e., he is a doctor so it may >have been a kind of 
>plastic surgery as we know today, or something faster and more advanced.

>the term glamour didn't always mean mere beauty or celebrity as it does to 
>us, but it is a kind of >illusory spell.  I believe the Doctor may have 
>cast this glamour through some potion or advanced bio-mutagen

Some good points are raised. I'll mention that the scene with The Cumaean, 
at the end of Claw, spells out in rather specific detail what was done to 
Jolenta.  As I remember, silk threads were sewn into her hair, her teeth 
ground down and capped, healthening broths cleared up her skin and metal 
wires and bands were attached to her skeleton.  The potion (the effect of 
which is lost as she loses blood) redistributes her flesh.  Perhaps her 
large eyes were achieved through a belladonna type poison, as it was for 
Thecla as a girl.  Definitely a faster process than whatever we might have 
today-  Jolenta was ready for the stage a few days after her treatment.

-bsharp

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From: Bob Miller <bob_bageera at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:23:03 +0000

Scott K writes: (snips)

 >cast this glamour through some potion or advanced bio-mutagen

Very interesting, thank you.  I had remembered the "adornments" Talos had  
made to Jolenta.  It had always seemed to me that a good deal of her 
attractiveness came from the confidence that she gained under Talos.  Why?  
I well remember stories of a young and slightly mousy looking lady bundled 
up in loose clothes going up to people on the streets of New York City and 
asking, "Would you like to meet Marilyn Monroe?"  And if the answer was yes, 
  throwing back her hood and turning on her persona with a big smile.  This 
was while Norma Jean was studying with Lee Strasberg.

With her Sun(Talos)  leaving her, there was no energy left for her to 
"shower?" on the rest of the world.
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From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 17:47:50 +0000

>It had always seemed to me that a good deal of her 
>attractiveness came from the confidence that she gained under Talos.

Severian sees "wires and bands of metal" that were placed under Jolenta's
flesh.  Why would Talos bother with that if he could make her beautiful
with a "glamor" or by raising her self esteem?

What I have always wondered is where Talos took her to perform this
invasive surgery, and how she recovered so quickly.  I suppose it's
possible that the flying saucer descended and Talos did the work in there,
but it would have been conspicuous, to say the least.

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From: Scott K <scott at skatemonk.com>
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 12:11:40 +0000

re-reading Conciliator now, first time in about 6 years. Recently 
finished Return To Whorl and Solar Labyrinth (and joined this group), 
so I'm plunging in from the beginning again, like that swim in fetid 
Gyoll, so long ago. I stand corrected by both of you who posted about 
the metal and hair implants.
   But surely it is more than just surgery at work (whatever passes for 
surgery in that far-flung time to those of a class to have access to 
Baldanders' or Hierodule level of technology), so that the overall 
effect is as a glamour in the old sense, an illusory or fast 
biochemical enhancement as if by magic.
   I wonder if Talos could use the machine technology that made Jonas' 
original mech body, which was so much lighter than flesh. Or do I 
remember somewhere that Sev says Jolenta was rather heavy? Perhaps 
Talos' enhancement are not as refined as Jonas-tech, or uses more 
common iron parts or something. Not that there's as much metal used on 
Jolenta, much of it is clearly flesh.
-Scott Kimball

Severian sees "wires and bands of metal" that were placed under 
Jolenta's
flesh.  Why would Talos bother with that if he could make her beautiful
with a "glamor" or by raising her self esteem?

What I have always wondered is where Talos took her to perform this
invasive surgery, and how she recovered so quickly.  I suppose it's
possible that the flying saucer descended and Talos did the work in 
there,
but it would have been conspicuous, to say the least.
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From: Jack Redelfs <jackredelfs at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 03:04:09 +0000

> but it would have been conspicuous, to say the least.

Perhaps, but I was always struck by how Talos treated the cacogens with
familiarity in _Sword_, more like colleagues than patrons.
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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 04:29:21 +0000

Second: Borski, _Long and Short_.  One of the essays is atrociously  
edited: he keeps saying "Pendelton's" for the plural.  His editor  
should have caught this.  Also, he doesn't mention, that I noticed,  
one of the big hints in _5HC_ onomastics: "Phaedrus" means "Wolf";  
"Phaedria" is therefore pretty obvious.  I'm not all that far into  
it; I think he might be right about the werewolf thing.

Adam

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From: Rex Lycanthrosaurus <lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm>
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 05:50:07 +0000

On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 22:29:21 -0600, "Adam Thornton" <adam at io.com> said:
 
> should have caught this.  

Self-published books do not have editors--not that that makes much
difference given the overall atrocious copyediting of Mr. Wolfe's works
by alleged professionals. Remember the Garvaon/Garsecg confusion in TWK
or the amphisbaena whose "one *hand* is dead" in _tBotNS_? If memory
serves, _Soldier of Sidon_ was originally scheduled to be published on
10-17, but then had its release date pushed back by two weeks; was it, I
wondered, because newly discovered typos needed to be corrected? (Kudos
to the TOR design team at any rate -- this is easily Wolfe's
best-looking book.)

Also, he doesn't mention, that I noticed,  
> "Phaedria" is therefore pretty obvious. 

*Groan.* Absolutely not true, and yet it's accepted by millions of
readers because Robert Pirsig makes the claim in _Zen and the Art of
Motorcycle Maintenance_. (An interesting parallel is Mark Twain's
assertion that mummies were used for fuel in Egyptian trains -- a canard
that is still accepted today as fact.) Pirsig corrects the mistake in
his most recent introduction to _Zen_; rather, if memory serves (since I
can't find the book), Phaedrus means "light." 

And while the subject of werewolves has been broached, I wonder if Gene
Wolfe is fond of Warren Zevon's music, and especially his "Werewolves of
London." The name 'Zevon' apparently derives from the Russian Zevotosky,
"Son of the Wolf.' Ahooooo!

-- 
  Rex Lycanthrosaurus
  lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...