{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4768", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4768, "subject": "The Book of the New Sun", "messages": 15, "voices": 7, "first": "2006-11-14T05:23:56+00:00", "last": "2006-12-02T10:55:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<433905.64816.qm@web32403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-11-14T05:23:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi everyone,\n\nNot much Latro going on yet, I see. Not much to this\npost either except to say that I'm rereading the Book\nof the New Sun and just enjoying the hell out of it.\nIt's been a couple of years since I picked it up and\nit's nice to step away from the minutiae and the\ntheorizing and just dig on the narrative power of the\nwork as a whole. It's really a great, great book. But\nyou all knew that, didn't you?\n\nDon\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<62843A33-CC7F-4A20-A2E4-DED361B783D8@tcnj.edu>", "from": { "name": "Matthew DeLuca", "address": "deluca22 at tcnj.edu" }, "date": "2006-11-14T05:26:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<433905.64816.qm@web32403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well I'm reading Soldier of Sidon right now. Frankly it may be \nWolfe's best work with Latro yet. I'm glad he wrote this like Wizard \nKnight, he doesn't use a lot of confusing sentences and vocab. \nHopefully we can create a good discussion on this work within the \nnear future.\n\nMatt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 14, 2006, at 12:23 AM, don doggett wrote:\nHi everyone,\n\nNot much Latro going on yet, I see. Not much to this\npost either except to say that I'm rereading the Book\nof the New Sun and just enjoying the hell out of it.\nIt's been a couple of years since I picked it up and\nit's nice to step away from the minutiae and the\ntheorizing and just dig on the narrative power of the\nwork as a whole. It's really a great, great book. But\nyou all knew that, didn't you?\n\nDon\n\n\n\n______________________________________________________________________ \n______________\nDo you Yahoo!?\nEveryone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.\nhttp://new.mail.yahoo.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Rabin", "address": "wolfe-lists at danrabin.com" }, "date": "2006-11-14T06:44:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<62843A33-CC7F-4A20-A2E4-DED361B783D8@tcnj.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:26 AM -0500 11/14/06, Matthew DeLuca wrote:\nWell I'm reading Soldier of Sidon right now. Frankly it may be \nWolfe's best work with Latro yet. I'm glad he wrote this like Wizard \nKnight, he doesn't use a lot of confusing sentences and vocab. \nHopefully we can create a good discussion on this work within the \nnear future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm done with my first reading, and I'm ready to join a discussion \nonce enough other people are done so that we can be free with the \nspoilers.\n\nThis is going to be fun. We've got the charisma of ancient Egypt to \nlap up, somewhat like the appeal of dinosaurs to children (our \nknowledge of both relies on impressive reconstructions of a hidden \npast). Then there's the Darkest Africa thing to contend with.\n\nNon-spoiler stuff: all three Latro books have the name-lists at the \nend, whereas the Long and the Short have them at the front, where \nsome entries are slight spoilers. I've always assumed that Wolfe \nchose the positioning of this matter, but it's conceivably a choice \nmade by the editor or even the book designer. Does anyone think this \nis important enough to ask Wolfe about?\n\nAlso, the \"translator's\" notes in the New Sun books, whose narrator \nnever forgets, are at the ends of the volumes, whereas those of the \nSoldier books, whose narrator cannot remember, are at the beginning. \nThis fits the general pattern of inversions between the two series, \nbut also solves a technical problem: the construction of Latro's \nsituation makes foreshadowing within the body of the novels \nimmpossible, so the \"translator\" can plant a bit in the forewords.\n\n -- Dan Rabin" } ] }, { "message_id": "<45597559.1070207@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-11-14T07:50:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan Rabin wrote:\nThis fits the general pattern of inversions between the two series, \nbut also solves a technical problem: the construction of Latro's \nsituation makes foreshadowing within the body of the novels \nimmpossible, so the \"translator\" can plant a bit in the forewords." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "since the actual author isn't amnesiac, I don't see how this is a problem." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061114090401.3BD24DA84C@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-11-14T09:04:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<45597559.1070207@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sidon should arrive here in a couple of days, and I've been re-\nreading Mist & Arete in preparation. \n\nMainly I'm hoping for a good story well told, but I'm also hoping \nthat there'll be some answers to a few questions the first two \nbooks left hanging for me.\n\n1. The Unseen God" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the word's of Apollo and the mediocre verse of his priestess, \nright at the beginning in Thebes. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I send you to the God Unseen!\nWhose temple lies in Death's terrene!\nThen you shall learn why He's not seen.\"\n\nand : \"Long after, you will find what you seek in the dead city.\"\n\nI assume that \"the God Unseen\" is the really truly God or at least \nsomething further up the chain of comamnd than the gods encountered \nso far. \n\nGoogle says that \"terrene\" means \"belonging to this world, not \nheavenly\" so I guess \"Death's terrene\" = \"the dead city\", a real \nplace, maybe in Egypt? (I hope we're not going to get some kind of \nidentification of Akhenaten's Aten with the God of Moses, but I'm \nnervous ...)\n\nWe get a bit more on the Unseen God. Outside Sestos, the Maiden \ntells Latro that the gods still meddle in the affairs of men: \"Not \noften now, but the Unseen God wanes, and we are no longer lost in \nhis light. We will never be wholly gone.\" Be good to get some kind \nof explanation for that. \n\nWhich brings me on to ...\n\n2. Why does Latro end up as a favorite (apparently) of the Earth \nMother after starting out (apparently) cursed by her? \n\nThe scene with her as Cybele in Thrace is interesting. It appeared \nto Latro \"that a second sun rose behind her ... a splendid light \nenfolding her in a mantle brighter than the purest gold.\" He harps \non this, so maybe it's more than just a god-ish aura; maybe the \nsign of the God Unseen in whose light Cybele is illuminated but not \nlost - referring back to the Maiden's comments.\n\nPresumably all are working to further the designs of the Unseen \nGod, whether or not they know it. In the story so far, Latro has \nbeen a pawn in what seems like a rather petty squabble between \ngoddesses, but maybe in Sidon there will be more hints of a Larger \nDesign.\n\n3. What did Aphrodite hypnotize Latro to say or do or believe in \nKalleos' garden?\n\n4. Who actually won at the end of Arete - Diana, the Mother, both?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3B10AD75-1273-4FC1-AC4F-9A5EFCB0ABB6@tcnj.edu>", "from": { "name": "Matthew DeLuca", "address": "deluca22 at tcnj.edu" }, "date": "2006-11-14T15:48:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<20061114090401.3BD24DA84C@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1. The Unseen God" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From the word's of Apollo and the mediocre verse of his priestess,\nright at the beginning in Thebes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I send you to the God Unseen!\nWhose temple lies in Death's terrene!\nThen you shall learn why He's not seen.\"\n\nand : \"Long after, you will find what you seek in the dead city.\"\n\nI assume that \"the God Unseen\" is the really truly God or at least\nsomething further up the chain of comamnd than the gods encountered\nso far.\n\nGoogle says that \"terrene\" means \"belonging to this world, not\nheavenly\" so I guess \"Death's terrene\" = \"the dead city\", a real\nplace, maybe in Egypt? (I hope we're not going to get some kind of\nidentification of Akhenaten's Aten with the God of Moses, but I'm\nnervous ...)\n\nWe get a bit more on the Unseen God. Outside Sestos, the Maiden\ntells Latro that the gods still meddle in the affairs of men: \"Not\noften now, but the Unseen God wanes, and we are no longer lost in\nhis light. We will never be wholly gone.\" Be good to get some kind\nof explanation for that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well like right in the middle of Sidon, Latro goes to the Undead city \nand it's probably one of the best scenes (very American Gods-ish) in \nthe book so far. Suffice it to say, this prophecy does take place in \nSidon.\n\nSidon has a lot of elements in it, it's a combination of all the \nprevious Latro novels, The Short Sun series and contains many Gaiman \nelements (maybe Gaiman has many Wolfian elements, who knows?)\n\nThe Gods are still alive and well in Egypt in Sidon.\n\nMatt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1163525085.14936.275801664@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2006-11-14T17:24:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro & Unseen God (Possible spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<20061114090401.3BD24DA84C@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:04:00 +1100, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mainly I'm hoping for a good story well told, but I'm also hoping \nthat there'll be some answers to a few questions the first two \nbooks left hanging for me.\n\n1. The Unseen God" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From the word's of Apollo and the mediocre verse of his priestess, \nright at the beginning in Thebes. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I send you to the God Unseen!\nWhose temple lies in Death's terrene!\nThen you shall learn why He's not seen.\"\n\nand : \"Long after, you will find what you seek in the dead city.\"\n\nI assume that \"the God Unseen\" is the really truly God or at least \nsomething further up the chain of comamnd than the gods encountered \nso far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure I agree, since the name Hades means \"unseen\" and he's king of\nthe underworld, where there is no sunlight--plus Dis Pater is never\nencountered until we're dead.\n\nThe very last chapter of _Sidon_ with its boatman and Cerberus-analog\n(besides reinforcing the Latro-as-Heracles subtheme) seems to indicate\nLatro is close to the particular realm in question." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and\n love email again" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew DeLuca", "address": "deluca22 at tcnj.edu" }, "date": "2006-11-14T19:32:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro & Unseen God (Possible spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<1163525085.14936.275801664@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 14, 2006, at 12:24 PM, Rex Lycanthrosaurus wrote:\nOn Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:04:00 +1100, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mainly I'm hoping for a good story well told, but I'm also hoping\nthat there'll be some answers to a few questions the first two\nbooks left hanging for me.\n\n1. The Unseen God" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From the word's of Apollo and the mediocre verse of his priestess,\nright at the beginning in Thebes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I send you to the God Unseen!\nWhose temple lies in Death's terrene!\nThen you shall learn why He's not seen.\"\n\nand : \"Long after, you will find what you seek in the dead city.\"\n\nI assume that \"the God Unseen\" is the really truly God or at least\nsomething further up the chain of comamnd than the gods encountered\nso far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not sure I agree, since the name Hades means \"unseen\" and he's king of\nthe underworld, where there is no sunlight--plus Dis Pater is never\nencountered until we're dead.\n\nThe very last chapter of _Sidon_ with its boatman and Cerberus-analog\n(besides reinforcing the Latro-as-Heracles subtheme) seems to indicate\nLatro is close to the particular realm in question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was referring to Latro's judgement when he is dead in the middle of \nthe book. I thought this might have some connection." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061114200008.9FFFFDA84B@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-11-14T20:00:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro & Unseen God (Possible spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 04:24:45 +1100 Rex Lycanthrosaurus \n wrote:\n\nNot sure I agree, since the name Hades means \"unseen\" and he's \nking of\nthe underworld, where there is no sunlight--plus Dis Pater is \nnever\nencountered until we're dead.\n\nThe very last chapter of _Sidon_ with its boatman and Cerberus-\nanalog\n(besides reinforcing the Latro-as-Heracles subtheme) seems to \nindicate\nLatro is close to the particular realm in question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point! But I'm going to stick with the my interpretation for \nnow. Pindar says he doesn't know who is meant by \"the god unseen\" - \nwhy wouldn't he have picked up on a Hades reference? And it seems \nto be a well-recognized christian usage - eg Colossians 1 (tks to \nGoogle). Plus the Maiden's reference to the god (assuming it's the \nsame one) as a radiant being, which doesn't seem to fit Hades very \nwell. Finally, Latro actually meets Hades a couple of times, which \nweakens the \"unseen\" aspect.\n\nThough there could be a double meaning.\n\nAnyway, my half-baked guess at the moment is that there's a \nconnection with Latro's memory palace, which will turn out to be an \nimage of Akhenaten's destroyed temple to Aten in Karnak. East of \nthe Nile; huge, open, airy; a radiant supreme/exclusive solar \ndeity; a dead city; Karnak has an avenue of sphinxes (although all \nram-headed, I think, but there were sphinx's in the Aten temple \ntoo). " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1163543378.18067.275825790@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2006-11-14T22:29:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro & Unseen God (Possible spoiler)", "in_reply_to": "<20061114200008.9FFFFDA84B@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:00:08 +1100, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pindar says he doesn't know who is meant by \"the god unseen\" - \nwhy wouldn't he have picked up on a Hades reference?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Latro uses the name 'Hades' only once in the first two books, preferring\ninstead 'Receiver of Many,' which he uses at least three times.\n'Receiver of Many,' translated back into Greek is Polydectes--indeed, an\nepithet of Hades. So perhaps Pindar is more familiar with Polydectes or\nany of Hades' other names.\n\nTheoWiki (http://www.theowiki.com/index.php/Hades) also asserts that\n\"[Hades] is best known in Hellas under the name Plouton/ Ploutonas\" and\nthat \"Hades is the most recent form. An older form of his name is Aides\nor Aidoneus and an even older form is Ais, which means house and refers\nto the Underworld as the House of Hades.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Plus the Maiden's reference to the god (assuming it's the \nsame one) as a radiant being, which doesn't seem to fit Hades very \nwell. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, according to TheoWiki, \"the meaning of the names Ais, Aides or\nAidoneus or Hades is 'The Invisible' or 'Invisibility giving', in\ncontrast with Helios 'The Visible', 'the Visible Giving'. It also makes\na greater contrast between Zeus and Hades whose name once meant 'the\nbrightness of the day'.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, my half-baked guess at the moment is that there's a \nconnection with Latro's memory palace, which will turn out to be an \nimage of Akhenaten's destroyed temple to Aten in Karnak. East of \nthe Nile; huge, open, airy; a radiant supreme/exclusive solar \ndeity; a dead city; Karnak has an avenue of sphinxes (although all \nram-headed, I think, but there were sphinx's in the Aten temple \ntoo). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Latro's memory palace is almost certainly based on a real structure, and\nit seems probable that something he's done here (along with his 100\nfellow mercenaries) is what's earned him the enmity of Gaea/Demeter. But\nis this \"lost temple\" Egyptian in origin or Assyrian/Sumerian? In my\nopinion the sphinxes, griffins, winged bearded bulls, and man-bull make\nthe latter more likely." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - And now for something completely different" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Rabin", "address": "wolfe-lists at danrabin.com" }, "date": "2006-11-14T22:30:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<45597559.1070207@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 1:50 AM -0600 11/14/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDan Rabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " This fits the general pattern of inversions between the two series,\n but also solves a technical problem: the construction of Latro's\n situation makes foreshadowing within the body of the novels\n immpossible, so the \"translator\" can plant a bit in the forewords." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "since the actual author isn't amnesiac, I don't see how this is a problem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant that Latro, not Wolfe, can't foreshadow the way Severian can. \nIt is true, as I guess you're suggesting, that nothing prevents Wolfe \nfrom injecting foreshadowing into the utterances and actions of \nothers as reported by Latro. Indeed, Wolfe has gods, oracles, and \nseers do precisely this.\n\n -- Dan Rabin" } ] }, { "message_id": "<455A7F75.8020605@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-11-15T02:46:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan Rabin wrote:\nAt 1:50 AM -0600 11/14/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan Rabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " This fits the general pattern of inversions between the two series,\n but also solves a technical problem: the construction of Latro's\n situation makes foreshadowing within the body of the novels\n immpossible, so the \"translator\" can plant a bit in the forewords." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "since the actual author isn't amnesiac, I don't see how this is a problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I meant that Latro, not Wolfe, can't foreshadow the way Severian can. \nIt is true, as I guess you're suggesting, that nothing prevents Wolfe \nfrom injecting foreshadowing into the utterances and actions of \nothers as reported by Latro. Indeed, Wolfe has gods, oracles, and \nseers do precisely this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that I think about it, Latro can do this, though not reliably. \nCertainly in _Mist_, he revisits themes and topics hinted at earlier, \nand this is explained by him re-reading his earlier entries immediately \nprior to inscribing new ones. In fact, he pretty much has to be assumed \nto re-read at least \"read this every day\" for him to know to continue \nthe scroll at all." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9CC167E0-1DAD-4ABF-A4B5-6FF19EA2775A@tcnj.edu>", "from": { "name": "Matthew DeLuca", "address": "deluca22 at tcnj.edu" }, "date": "2006-11-15T06:49:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<455A7F75.8020605@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is an interesting homage to Severian and necromancy of a sort \nin Sidon (I know there was some in Mist too) in that his presence \nreanimates Sabra, the wax woman. Is there some Greek or foreign myth \nthat parallels this reanimation myth that Wolfe would include in Sidon?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-12-01T08:25:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<20061114090401.3BD24DA84C@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/14/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n2. Why does Latro end up as a favorite (apparently) of the Earth\nMother after starting out (apparently) cursed by her?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's just that she's decided she has a use for him. It's not\nlike she revokes her curse and heals him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. What did Aphrodite hypnotize Latro to say or do or believe in\nKalleos' garden?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aphrodite=love. She says Latro will not forget her=will not forget\nlove. One of the few things Latro seems to remember is his love for\nPharetra (he gets choked up hearing her name even when he hasn't read\nabout her that day). Maybe this is the gift Aphrodite gave him with\nher visit?\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061202105527.EA4512283E@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-12-02T10:55:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 19:25:45 +1100 Michael Straight \n wrote:\nOn 11/14/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2. Why does Latro end up as a favorite (apparently) of the Earth\nMother after starting out (apparently) cursed by her?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it's just that she's decided she has a use for him. It's \nnot\nlike she revokes her curse and heals him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be. But by the time he encounters her in sphinx-form, she's \ninstructing him in a perhaps motherly way; apparently guarding his \nmemory palace; and actually declaring that she's his mother. \n\nAnd also his mother's mother. \n\nHere's my guess at what that's supposed to mean. As a Roman, Latro \nis perhaps a descendant of Aeneas. Aeneas was the son of \nAphrodite/Venus. This might make Latro a \"son of Aphrodite/Venus\" \nin the same way that the Amazons are \"daughters of Ares/Mars\". \n\nIn Homer & elsewhere, Aphrodite is the daughter of Dione, who seems \nto be a great mother goddess, another aspect of Gaea. So that could \nmake Gaea Latro's \"mother's mother\".\n\nIf Latro is himself supposed to be some kind of aspect of \nMars/Ares, that also makes him a \"son of Juno/Hera\", arguably \nanother aspect of Gaea. \n\n(Latro is at least a \"son of Mars\", like the Amazons - Mars was the \nfather of Romulus, the other great Roman ancestor, and Romans often \nreferred to themselves in this way. Maybe this explains why he & \nAmazons get on so well together, as well as injecting some Wolfean \nquasi-incest into the story.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3. What did Aphrodite hypnotize Latro to say or do or believe in\nKalleos' garden?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aphrodite=love. She says Latro will not forget her=will not \nforget\nlove. One of the few things Latro seems to remember is his love \nfor\nPharetra (he gets choked up hearing her name even when he hasn't \nread\nabout her that day). Maybe this is the gift Aphrodite gave him \nwith\nher visit?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could be. At any rate, there's a little incident in Sidon which \nhints at Aphrodite gently interfering once again, maybe in the same \nkind of way ..." } ] } ] }