Subject: (urth) The Book of the New Sun

From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 05:23:56 +0000

Hi everyone,

Not much Latro going on yet, I see. Not much to this
post either except to say that I'm rereading the Book
of the New Sun and just enjoying the hell out of it.
It's been a couple of years since I picked it up and
it's nice to step away from the minutiae and the
theorizing and just dig on the narrative power of the
work as a whole. It's really a great, great book. But
you all knew that, didn't you?

Don

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From: Matthew DeLuca <deluca22 at tcnj.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 05:26:31 +0000

Well I'm reading Soldier of Sidon right now. Frankly it may be  
Wolfe's best work with Latro yet. I'm glad he wrote this like Wizard  
Knight, he doesn't use a lot of confusing sentences and vocab.  
Hopefully we can create a good discussion on this work within the  
near future.

Matt

On Nov 14, 2006, at 12:23 AM, don doggett wrote:

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From: Dan Rabin <wolfe-lists at danrabin.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:44:45 +0000

>Hopefully we can create a good discussion on this work within the 

I'm done with my first reading, and I'm ready to join a discussion 
once enough other people are done so that we can be free with the 
spoilers.

This is going to be fun.  We've got the charisma of ancient Egypt to 
lap up, somewhat like the appeal of dinosaurs to children (our 
knowledge of both relies on impressive reconstructions of a hidden 
past).  Then there's the Darkest Africa thing to contend with.

Non-spoiler stuff: all three Latro books have the name-lists at the 
end, whereas the Long and the Short have them at the front, where 
some entries are slight spoilers.  I've always assumed that Wolfe 
chose the positioning of this matter, but it's conceivably a choice 
made by the editor or even the book designer.  Does anyone think this 
is important enough to ask Wolfe about?

Also, the "translator's" notes in the New Sun books, whose narrator 
never forgets, are at the ends of the volumes, whereas those of the 
Soldier books, whose narrator cannot remember, are at the beginning. 
This fits the general pattern of inversions between the two series, 
but also solves a technical problem: the construction of Latro's 
situation makes foreshadowing within the body of the novels 
immpossible, so the "translator" can plant a bit in the forewords.

   -- Dan Rabin

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:50:49 +0000

> immpossible, so the "translator" can plant a bit in the forewords.

since the actual author isn't amnesiac, I don't see how this is a problem.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:04:00 +0000

Sidon should arrive here in a couple of days, and I've been re-
reading Mist & Arete in preparation. 

Mainly I'm hoping for a good story well told, but I'm also hoping 
that there'll be some answers to a few questions the first two 
books left hanging for me.

1. The Unseen God

>>From the word's of Apollo and the mediocre verse of his priestess, 
right at the beginning in Thebes.  

"I send you to the God Unseen!
Whose temple lies in Death's terrene!
Then you shall learn why He's not seen."

and : "Long after, you will find what you seek in the dead city."

I assume that "the God Unseen" is the really truly God or at least 
something further up the chain of comamnd than the gods encountered 
so far. 

Google says that "terrene" means "belonging to this world, not 
heavenly" so I guess "Death's terrene" = "the dead city", a real 
place, maybe in Egypt? (I hope we're not going to get some kind of 
identification of Akhenaten's Aten with the God of Moses, but I'm 
nervous ...)

We get a bit more on the Unseen God. Outside Sestos, the Maiden 
tells Latro that the gods still meddle in the affairs of men: "Not 
often now, but the Unseen God wanes, and we are no longer lost in 
his light. We will never be wholly gone." Be good to get some kind 
of explanation for that. 

Which brings me on to ...

2. Why does Latro end up as a favorite (apparently) of the Earth 
Mother after starting out (apparently) cursed by her? 

The scene with her as Cybele in Thrace is interesting. It appeared 
to Latro "that a second sun rose behind her ... a splendid light 
enfolding her in a mantle brighter than the purest gold." He harps 
on this, so maybe it's more than just a god-ish aura; maybe the 
sign of the God Unseen in whose light Cybele is illuminated but not 
lost - referring back to the Maiden's comments.

Presumably all are working to further the designs of the Unseen 
God, whether or not they know it. In the story so far, Latro has 
been a pawn in what seems like a rather petty squabble between 
goddesses, but maybe in Sidon there will be more hints of a Larger 
Design.

3. What did Aphrodite hypnotize Latro to say or do or believe in 
Kalleos' garden?

4. Who actually won at the end of Arete - Diana, the Mother, both?

---

From: Matthew DeLuca <deluca22 at tcnj.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:48:20 +0000

> his light. We will never be wholly gone." Be good to get some kind

Well like right in the middle of Sidon, Latro goes to the Undead city  
and it's probably one of the best scenes (very American Gods-ish) in  
the book so far. Suffice it to say, this prophecy does take place in  
Sidon.

Sidon has a lot of elements in it, it's a combination of all the  
previous Latro novels, The Short Sun series and contains many Gaiman  
elements (maybe Gaiman has many Wolfian elements, who knows?)

The Gods are still alive and well in Egypt in Sidon.

Matt
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From: Rex Lycanthrosaurus <lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:24:45 +0000

> something further up the chain of comamnd than the gods encountered 

Not sure I agree, since the name Hades means "unseen" and he's king of
the underworld, where there is no sunlight--plus Dis Pater is never
encountered until we're dead.

The very last chapter of _Sidon_ with its boatman and Cerberus-analog
(besides reinforcing the Latro-as-Heracles subtheme) seems to indicate
Latro is close to the particular realm in question.
-- 
  Rex Lycanthrosaurus
  lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and
                          love email again

---

From: Matthew DeLuca <deluca22 at tcnj.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:32:59 +0000

> Latro is close to the particular realm in question.

I was referring to Latro's judgement when he is dead in the middle of  
the book. I thought this might have some connection.

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:00:08 +0000

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 04:24:45 +1100 Rex Lycanthrosaurus 
>Latro is close to the particular realm in question.

Good point! But I'm going to stick with the my interpretation for 
now. Pindar says he doesn't know who is meant by "the god unseen" - 
why wouldn't he have picked up on a Hades reference? And it seems 
to be a well-recognized christian usage - eg Colossians 1 (tks to 
Google). Plus the Maiden's reference to the god (assuming it's the 
same one) as a radiant being, which doesn't seem to fit Hades very 
well. Finally, Latro actually meets Hades a couple of times, which 
weakens the "unseen" aspect.

Though there could be a double meaning.

Anyway, my half-baked guess at the moment is that there's a 
connection with Latro's memory palace, which will turn out to be an 
image of Akhenaten's destroyed temple to Aten in Karnak. East of 
the Nile; huge, open, airy; a radiant supreme/exclusive solar 
deity; a dead city; Karnak has an avenue of sphinxes (although all 
ram-headed, I think, but there were sphinx's in the Aten temple 
too).

---

From: Rex Lycanthrosaurus <lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:29:38 +0000

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:00:08 +1100, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com said:

> Pindar says he doesn't know who is meant by "the god unseen" - 
> why wouldn't he have picked up on a Hades reference?

Latro uses the name 'Hades' only once in the first two books, preferring
instead 'Receiver of Many,' which he uses at least three times.
'Receiver of Many,' translated back into Greek is Polydectes--indeed, an
epithet of Hades. So perhaps Pindar is more familiar with Polydectes or
any of Hades' other names.

TheoWiki (http://www.theowiki.com/index.php/Hades) also asserts that
"[Hades] is best known in Hellas under the name Plouton/ Ploutonas" and
that "Hades is the most recent form. An older form of his name is Aides
or Aidoneus and an even older form is Ais, which means house and refers
to the Underworld as the House of Hades."

> Plus the Maiden's reference to the god (assuming it's the 
> well. 

Again, according to TheoWiki, "the meaning of the names Ais, Aides or
Aidoneus or Hades is 'The Invisible' or 'Invisibility giving', in
contrast with Helios 'The Visible', 'the Visible Giving'. It also makes
a greater contrast between Zeus and Hades whose name once meant 'the
brightness of the day'."

> ram-headed, I think, but there were sphinx's in the Aten temple 

Latro's memory palace is almost certainly based on a real structure, and
it seems probable that something he's done here (along with his 100
fellow mercenaries) is what's earned him the enmity of Gaea/Demeter. But
is this "lost temple" Egyptian in origin or Assyrian/Sumerian? In my
opinion the sphinxes, griffins, winged bearded bulls, and man-bull make
the latter more likely.
-- 
  Rex Lycanthrosaurus
  lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - And now for something completely different

---

From: Dan Rabin <wolfe-lists at danrabin.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:30:15 +0000

>since the actual author isn't amnesiac, I don't see how this is a problem.

I meant that Latro, not Wolfe, can't foreshadow the way Severian can. 
It is true, as I guess you're suggesting, that nothing prevents Wolfe 
from injecting foreshadowing into the utterances and actions of 
others as reported by Latro.  Indeed, Wolfe has gods, oracles, and 
seers do precisely this.

   -- Dan Rabin

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 02:46:13 +0000

> others as reported by Latro.  Indeed, Wolfe has gods, oracles, and 

Now that I think about it, Latro can do this, though not reliably. 
Certainly in _Mist_, he revisits themes and topics hinted at earlier, 
and this is explained by him re-reading his earlier entries immediately 
prior to inscribing new ones. In fact, he pretty much has to be assumed 
to re-read at least "read this every day" for him to know to continue 
the scroll at all.

---

From: Matthew DeLuca <deluca22 at tcnj.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:49:39 +0000

There is an interesting homage to Severian and necromancy of a sort  
in Sidon (I know there was some in Mist too) in that his presence  
reanimates Sabra, the wax woman. Is there some Greek or foreign myth  
that parallels this reanimation myth that Wolfe would include in Sidon?

---

From: Michael Straight <mfstraight at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 08:25:45 +0000

> Mother after starting out (apparently) cursed by her?

I think it's just that she's decided she has a use for him.  It's not
like she revokes her curse and heals him.

> 3. What did Aphrodite hypnotize Latro to say or do or believe in

Aphrodite=love.  She says Latro will not forget her=will not forget
love.  One of the few things Latro seems to remember is his love for
Pharetra (he gets choked up hearing her name even when he hasn't read
about her that day).  Maybe this is the gift Aphrodite gave him with
her visit?

Rostrum

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:55:27 +0000

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 19:25:45 +1100 Michael Straight 
<mfstraight at gmail.com> wrote:
>On 11/14/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com> 

>wrote:

Could be. But by the time he encounters her in sphinx-form, she's 
instructing him in a perhaps motherly way; apparently guarding his 
memory palace; and actually declaring that she's his mother. 

And also his mother's mother. 

Here's my guess at what that's supposed to mean. As a Roman, Latro 
is perhaps a descendant of Aeneas. Aeneas was the son of 
Aphrodite/Venus. This might make Latro a "son of Aphrodite/Venus" 
in the same way that the Amazons are "daughters of Ares/Mars". 

In Homer & elsewhere, Aphrodite is the daughter of Dione, who seems 
to be a great mother goddess, another aspect of Gaea. So that could 
make Gaea Latro's "mother's mother".

If Latro is himself supposed to be some kind of aspect of 
Mars/Ares, that also makes him a "son of Juno/Hera", arguably 
another aspect of Gaea. 

(Latro is at least a "son of Mars", like the Amazons - Mars was the 
father of Romulus, the other great Roman ancestor, and Romans often 
referred to themselves in this way. Maybe this explains why he & 
Amazons get on so well together, as well as injecting some Wolfean 
quasi-incest into the story.)

>about her that day).  Maybe this is the gift Aphrodite gave him 

It could be.  At any rate, there's a little incident in Sidon which 
hints at Aphrodite gently interfering once again, maybe in the same 
kind of way ...