{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/477", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 477, "subject": "The \"Number Five = Five Gen", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-04-06T15:35:18+00:00", "last": "1998-04-06T16:01:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-04-06T16:01:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The \"Number Five = Five Gen", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n06/04/98\n 13:54\n The \"Number Five =3D Five Generations\" Theory\n\nSome interesting ideas on \"Number Five\" equating to five\ngenerations of clones. Here are my latest thoughts:\n\nRobert Borski:\nThe only slight problem I have with your interpretation is that you\ncount Mr. Million twice, once as a human being and again as the\nsimulator, which feels like cheating to me! Since the simulator is\na faithful copy of the original person, I don't think they can be\nregarded as separate entities to the extent that the various clones\nare.\n\nAnd don't forget that Dr Marsch says that the first GW was \nsomeone \"neither of you have ever seen\". If Mr Million was\nthe first GW, that would mean that Maitre never saw his own\ngrandfather; in any event, Number Five and Maitre can see Mr\nMillion's face in his screen. So for this reason too I don't think\nMr Million can be simulating the original GW.\n\nIf I'm going to go along with the Five Generations theory I think\nI'll have to take Pedro Jorge's interpretation, where there is still\nanother \"Gene Wolfe\" behind Mr Million, who was the first.\n\nHaving said that, do we know for sure that even Mr Million's \n\"father\", Number Five's great-great-grandfather, was the first of\nthe line? Dr Marsch's remark could be taken to suggest that\nthe line of clones stretches back quite far. This is why I'm not \ndropping my theory that Fifth equates to \"Fifth Head of the \nFamily\" either.\n\nAnd here's another reason:\n\"if, as I had always thought of them, the three heads represented\nMaitre, Madame and Mr Million... then indeed a fourth would have\nto be welded into place soon for David himself\"\n\nThis basically foregrounds the idea that the heads of Cerberus\nrepresent the (living) heads of the family. If the number five does\nequate to five generations, it definitely equates to the five\nfamily heads too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I submit that Phaedria, Number Five's early love interest (and later his\nhousemate) is his sister, the biological daughter of Maitre." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ingenious, but... \nTo tackle your points in order: (1) If Maitre had sold his daughter to\nPhaedria's parents, why should they now hope, as they do, to\nmarry her back into his family? (2) The broken ankle\\Aunt \nJeannine link seems very tenuous: a broken ankle really isn't that\nmuch like having no legs at all! (3) If Phaedria's name is supposed\nto be a classical allusion, why not actually name her after someone\nwho committed incest with her brother, rather than a stepson? (4)\nI'm not sure I understand why you think letting his girls attend the\nplay would further any designs Maitre might have.\n\nAnother objection is that Aunt Jeannine looks strongly like Maitre.\nYou would expect any sister of Number Five's to have the old\nfamily likeness too." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Jorge Romero", "address": "bempjr at redkbs.com" }, "date": "1998-04-06T15:35:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The \"Number Five = Five Gen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert Borski:\nThe only slight problem I have with your interpretation is that you\ncount Mr. Million twice, once as a human being and again as the\nsimulator, which feels like cheating to me! Since the simulator is\na faithful copy of the original person, I don't think they can be\nregarded as separate entities to the extent that the various clones\nare." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have the same problem. I can not count him twice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And don't forget that Dr Marsch says that the first GW was\nsomeone \"neither of you have ever seen\". If Mr Million was\nthe first GW, that would mean that Maitre never saw his own\ngrandfather; in any event, Number Five and Maitre can see Mr\nMillion's face in his screen. So for this reason too I don't think\nMr Million can be simulating the original GW.\n\nIf I'm going to go along with the Five Generations theory I think\nI'll have to take Pedro Jorge's interpretation, where there is still\nanother \"Gene Wolfe\" behind Mr Million, who was the first." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is my theory. The original GW is the baby with the girl in the\npicture Jeannine shows #5. After all, she says she is the his true\nmother, so it is easy to figure out the girl is the mother of the\noriginal GW and the baby is #1.\n\nAnd just speculating: is that a picture of Gene Wolfe's real mother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And here's another reason:\n\"if, as I had always thought of them, the three heads represented\nMaitre, Madame and Mr Million... then indeed a fourth would have\nto be welded into place soon for David himself\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's just what he \"always thought\". He could be wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another objection is that Aunt Jeannine looks strongly like Maitre.\nYou would expect any sister of Number Five's to have the old\nfamily likeness too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is Jeannine the \"control\" in the previous experiment? Then, why a girl?\nA boy, like David, would make much more sense?\n\nBest\n\nPedro Jorge" } ] } ] }