{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4776", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4776, "subject": "The end of Soldier of Arete", "messages": 10, "voices": 5, "first": "2006-11-30T06:04:51+00:00", "last": "2006-12-01T05:34:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-11-30T06:04:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The end of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just finished re-reading the first two Soldier books in preparation\nfor Soldier of Sidon. I'm convinced that they are Wolfe's very best.\n\nBut, wow, to completely follow the plot you really must keep careful\ntrack of every single character, which city they are from, which god\nthey serve, and all the alternate names for them, their regions, and\ntheir gods. (And also whether or not they are a werewolf, dryad,\ncentaur, ghost, or transgendered via possession by lamia.)\n\nI think I mostly got it this time but I'm still unclear about the\npenultimate paragraph.\n\nPindaros says that the ship Latro stole carried the cargo of the\nSpartan regent (Pausanius). But I thought the Crimson Men\n(Phonecians) had been robbed of the cargo by the pirates from\nHundred-Eyed (Argos?).\n\nI'd originally thought the pirates had taken the treasure and that the\nSpartans were holding the Crimson Men and their empty ship. But if\nHundred Eyed=Argos, and Pindaros says the Argives were asking for\nSpartan help in chasing Latro, that means the Argives were holding the\nCrimson Men captive and had the Phonecian ship with Pausanius's cargo\nsitting right there in the port under Pausanius's nose! Talk about\nhutzpah and trust in the truce of the games!\n\nSo it makes sense that Pausanius would order the Spartans to \"shun the\nPhonecian steel\" and prevent others from pursuing Latro--if he can't\nhave the cargo, neither can the Argives--but what does Pindaros mean\nwhen he says \"the shrewd prince gained ten times over what he lost\"?\nI don't see how he gains anything by Latro's escape except in the\nsense of \"my enemy's loss is my gain.\"\n\nI'm also not clear about Hegesistratus's comment \"He [Themistocles]\nhas become a friend of the Rope Makers...For the good of the world, he\nmust be discredited and they destroyed.\" But he believes he has been\nbribed by Artemis to make sure Latro wins. I can see how losing the\nrace might be a blow to Themistocles, but I don't see how it would\nlead to the Rope Makers being destroyed.\n\nAnd does he think that's why Artemis wants Latro to win the race?\nBecause it would lead to the destruction of her people, the Rope\nMakers? Surely that's more like what Gaea wants. (Is it possible\nthere is a typo and Hegestratus is saying Themistocles must be\ndiscredited and *then* destroyed?)\n\nIt's funny how Pindaros writes of the sighting of Artemis on Latro's\nship as if it's a sign that her hand was in Latro's escape in the\nvictory of the silver chariot. But that's the opposite of what\nArtemis wanted and if that was her on Latro's ship, it must be because\nhe's in big trouble with her.\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061130115618.4C88A22840@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-11-30T11:56:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The end of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:04:51 +1100 Michael Straight \n wrote:\n\nSo it makes sense that Pausanius would order the Spartans to \"shun " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the\nPhonecian steel\" and prevent others from pursuing Latro--if he \ncan't\nhave the cargo, neither can the Argives--but what does Pindaros \nmean\nwhen he says \"the shrewd prince gained ten times over what he \nlost\"?\nI don't see how he gains anything by Latro's escape except in the\nsense of \"my enemy's loss is my gain.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The end of Arete is Wolfe at his toughest, IMO. For this part of \nit, my conclusion is that Latro did a deal with Pausanias; the ship \ncargo in return for Pausanias holding back when Latro makes his \nplay. Towards the end, he writes: \"I still do not know what can be \ndone, but I know that for gold these Hellenes will connive at \nanything.\" Then a little later, Pausanias sends pasicrates off to \nCorinth, telling him not to come back without gold. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And does he think that's why Artemis wants Latro to win the race?\nBecause it would lead to the destruction of her people, the Rope\nMakers? Surely that's more like what Gaea wants. (Is it possible\nthere is a typo and Hegestratus is saying Themistocles must be\ndiscredited and *then* destroyed?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My reading on this: Pausanias is actually Gaea's favorite in this. \nRecall the scene where a decrepit Gaea phrophesizes for the helots. \nPasuanias will, perhaps, raise them up or whatever. \n\nArtemis, presumably for similar reasons, wants Pausanias destroyed. \nIn typical Greek fashion, the weapon of destruction is to be \nhubris, specifically a victory in the chariot race. As she says to \nLatro, H and Elata: \"My queen must win in order that the prince may \nbe destroyed.\" \n\nIn the end, things work out a little differently: Pausanias in fact \nloses the chariot race, but nevertheless \"wins\" in a sufficiently \nhubris-inducing way. (And Themistocles will suffer the same fate.) \n\nI think there was a deal worked out between the representatives of \nGaea and Artemis, in Ch38. Infuriatingly, Latro doesn't say what \nhappened at this meeting, finishing with Elata murmuring, \"Now we \ncan begin.\" \n\nSo I don't know what Gaea gets in exchange for Pausanias' downfall -\n maybe a victory for her grand-daughters, the Amazons? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's funny how Pindaros writes of the sighting of Artemis on \nLatro's\nship as if it's a sign that her hand was in Latro's escape in the\nvictory of the silver chariot. But that's the opposite of what\nArtemis wanted and if that was her on Latro's ship, it must be \nbecause\nhe's in big trouble with her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Artemis did get what she wanted - a \"victory\" for Pausanias, \n\"accounted twice a hero among the strategem loving Greeks.\" Gaea \npresumably gets the consolation prize of a victory for her grand-\ndaughters, the Amazons. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370611300846m6200af55n5cf567f845a5b660@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-11-30T16:46:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The end of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "<20061130115618.4C88A22840@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've also been rereading in prep and realized that I never quite\nworked this out:\nwho are the Sons of Sco**** (the bowmen -- I don't have the book to hand)?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nTragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open\nsewer and die.\n - Mel Brooks" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.5.6.2.20061130165555.04c1ba50@ukg.co.uk>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-11-30T16:58:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The end of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370611300846m6200af55n5cf567f845a5b660@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 16:46 30/11/2006, Dan'l wrote:\nI've also been rereading in prep and realized that I never quite\nworked this out:\nwho are the Sons of Sco**** (the bowmen -- I don't have the book to hand)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sons of Scoloti = Scythians (or possibly some subdivision thereof),\n\nMo\n\n\n\nMo Holkar\nUndying King Games\nmo at ukg.co.uk\nhttp://www.ukg.co.uk " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Internal Virus Database is out-of-date." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-11-30T17:02:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The end of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "<20061130115618.4C88A22840@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nThe end of Arete is Wolfe at his toughest, IMO. For this part of\nit, my conclusion is that Latro did a deal with Pausanias; the ship\ncargo in return for Pausanias holding back when Latro makes his\nplay. Towards the end, he writes: \"I still do not know what can be\ndone, but I know that for gold these Hellenes will connive at\nanything.\" Then a little later, Pausanias sends pasicrates off to\nCorinth, telling him not to come back without gold." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm. That's kind of a stretch. Hard to believe, given Pausanias's\npride. And would he really let Latro go, given that he believes that\nwith Latro at his side he has Nike there as well? On the other hand,\nhe really wants that gold, and this is a way to break the truce\nwithout being blamed. And given the high regard he has for Latro's\nopinions about the gods, he might feel that helping Latro was the way\nto get the gods on his side.\n\nThe other problem is that this has to be a secret deal or Pausanias is\nguilty of breaking the peace of the games. But Pindaros implies that\neveryone can see that Pausanias ended up gaining more than he lost.\n\nI'd like to believe it if only because it means Pasicrates's fate\nisn't quite as bleak as it appears. The gods punishment on him was\npretty relentless from the moment he tried to have Latro whipped." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Artemis, presumably for similar reasons, wants Pausanias destroyed.\nIn typical Greek fashion, the weapon of destruction is to be\nhubris, specifically a victory in the chariot race." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the end, things work out a little differently: Pausanias in fact\nloses the chariot race, but nevertheless \"wins\" in a sufficiently\nhubris-inducing way. (And Themistocles will suffer the same fate.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose this makes sense. We see how Themistocles is being damned\nby the Spartans' praise (this is their intention). I guess we're\nsupposed to assume something similar will happen to Pausanias?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there was a deal worked out between the representatives of\nGaea and Artemis, in Ch38. Infuriatingly, Latro doesn't say what\nhappened at this meeting, finishing with Elata murmuring, \"Now we\ncan begin.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Especially since Latro promised Elata he would write down in his\njournal what happened there. This is one of the few places I think\nWolfe cheated, leaving out something he wanted left unsaid but that\nLatro ought to have written." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I don't know what Gaea gets in exchange for Pausanias' downfall -\n maybe a victory for her grand-daughters, the Amazons?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe, unlike Artemis, she thinks Pausanias's downfall will actually\nbe bad for Sparta in the long run." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But that's the opposite of what\nArtemis wanted and if that was her on Latro's ship, it must be\nbecause\nhe's in big trouble with her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Artemis did get what she wanted - a \"victory\" for Pausanias,\n\"accounted twice a hero among the strategem loving Greeks.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that makes sense. I'd forgotten about the meeting where some\nkind of deal was struck between Artemis and Gaea. But again, how can\nPausanias be \"twice a hero\" if his profit from Latro's escape is that\nLatro secretly gives him the treasure (under the cover of Pasicrates\ngoing to Tower Hill to get some gold)?\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<456F1059.4010109@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-11-30T17:09:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The end of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Straight wrote:\nOn 11/30/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think there was a deal worked out between the representatives of\nGaea and Artemis, in Ch38. Infuriatingly, Latro doesn't say what\nhappened at this meeting, finishing with Elata murmuring, \"Now we\ncan begin.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Especially since Latro promised Elata he would write down in his\njournal what happened there. This is one of the few places I think\nWolfe cheated, leaving out something he wanted left unsaid but that\nLatro ought to have written." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember, other people have access to the scroll, and even the Latro du \njour may have had his temporary reasons for censoring it. GW can use all \nof the devices presumably employed in \"Seven American Nights\" and \n\"V.R.T.\" as well as deterioration due to extreme age." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-11-30T17:14:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The end of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "<456F1059.4010109@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nRemember, other people have access to the scroll, and even the Latro du\njour may have had his temporary reasons for censoring it. GW can use all\nof the devices presumably employed in \"Seven American Nights\" and\n\"V.R.T.\" as well as deterioration due to extreme age." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But no one else can read it, except maybe Hegistratus (does his gift\nallow him to read any language as well?), and he was at the meeting.\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-11-30T17:16:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The end of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One other question. Pindaros says that when Themistocles wins the\nvase then gives it to the Amazon queen, \"peace is forged between\nTheseus's city and Theseus's foes.\"\n\nWhich of Athens's foes is he refering to here? And how does\nThemistocles's victory and/or gift to the Amazons accomplish it? Does\nPindaros mean peace between the Athenians and the Amazons?\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061130204715.5D1C822846@mailserver9.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-11-30T20:47:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The end of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 04:16:29 +1100 Michael Straight \n wrote:\nOne other question. Pindaros says that when Themistocles wins the\nvase then gives it to the Amazon queen, \"peace is forged between\nTheseus's city and Theseus's foes.\"\n\nWhich of Athens's foes is he refering to here? And how does\nThemistocles's victory and/or gift to the Amazons accomplish it? \nDoes\nPindaros mean peace between the Athenians and the Amazons?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Theseus was supposed to have kidnapped an Amazon & taken her as his \nwife. When the Amazons invaded Attica seeking revenge, Theseus \ndefeated them. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<456FBED3.4010801@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-12-01T05:34:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The end of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Straight wrote:\nOn 11/30/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remember, other people have access to the scroll, and even the Latro du\njour may have had his temporary reasons for censoring it. GW can use all\nof the devices presumably employed in \"Seven American Nights\" and\n\"V.R.T.\" as well as deterioration due to extreme age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But no one else can read it, except maybe Hegistratus (does his gift\nallow him to read any language as well?), and he was at the meeting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We only know it was written that no one admitted being able to read what \nLatro writes. Even if this is true, someone could still sneak in and \nerase or scrape off a recent entry they fear records something damning." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }