Subject: (urth) The end of Soldier of Arete

From: Michael Straight <mfstraight at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 06:04:51 +0000

I just finished re-reading the first two Soldier books in preparation
for Soldier of Sidon.  I'm convinced that they are Wolfe's very best.

But, wow, to completely follow the plot you really must keep careful
track of every single character, which city they are from, which god
they serve, and all the alternate names for them, their regions, and
their gods.  (And also whether or not they are a werewolf, dryad,
centaur, ghost, or transgendered via possession by lamia.)

I think I mostly got it this time but I'm still unclear about the
penultimate paragraph.

Pindaros says that the ship Latro stole carried the cargo of the
Spartan regent (Pausanius).  But I thought the Crimson Men
(Phonecians) had been robbed of the cargo by the pirates from
Hundred-Eyed (Argos?).

I'd originally thought the pirates had taken the treasure and that the
Spartans were holding the Crimson Men and their empty ship.  But if
Hundred Eyed=Argos, and Pindaros says the Argives were asking for
Spartan help in chasing Latro, that means the Argives were holding the
Crimson Men captive and had the Phonecian ship with Pausanius's cargo
sitting right there in the port under Pausanius's nose!  Talk about
hutzpah and trust in the truce of the games!

So it makes sense that Pausanius would order the Spartans to "shun the
Phonecian steel" and prevent others from pursuing Latro--if he can't
have the cargo, neither can the Argives--but what does Pindaros mean
when he says "the shrewd prince gained ten times over what he lost"?
I don't see how he gains anything by Latro's escape except in the
sense of "my enemy's loss is my gain."

I'm also not clear about Hegesistratus's comment "He [Themistocles]
has become a friend of the Rope Makers...For the good of the world, he
must be discredited and they destroyed."   But he believes he has been
bribed by Artemis to make sure Latro wins.  I can see how losing the
race might be a blow to Themistocles, but I don't see how it would
lead to the Rope Makers being destroyed.

And does he think that's why Artemis wants Latro to win the race?
Because it would lead to the destruction of her people, the Rope
Makers?  Surely that's more like what Gaea wants.  (Is it possible
there is a typo and Hegestratus is saying Themistocles must be
discredited and *then* destroyed?)

It's funny how Pindaros writes of the sighting of Artemis on Latro's
ship as if it's a sign that her hand was in Latro's escape in the
victory of the silver chariot.  But that's the opposite of what
Artemis wanted and if that was her on Latro's ship, it must be because
he's in big trouble with her.

Rostrum

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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:56:17 +0000

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:04:51 +1100 Michael Straight 
<mfstraight at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>So it makes sense that Pausanius would order the Spartans to "shun 

>the

The end of Arete is Wolfe at his toughest, IMO. For this part of 
it, my conclusion is that Latro did a deal with Pausanias; the ship 
cargo in return for Pausanias holding back when Latro makes his 
play. Towards the end, he writes: "I still do not know what can be 
done, but I know that for gold these Hellenes will connive at 
anything."  Then a little later, Pausanias sends pasicrates off to 
Corinth, telling him not to come back without gold.  

>discredited and *then* destroyed?)

My reading on this: Pausanias is actually Gaea's favorite in this. 
Recall the scene where a decrepit Gaea phrophesizes for the helots. 
Pasuanias will, perhaps, raise them up or whatever. 

Artemis, presumably for similar reasons, wants Pausanias destroyed. 
In typical Greek fashion, the weapon of destruction is to be 
hubris, specifically a victory in the chariot race. As she says to 
Latro, H and Elata: "My queen must win in order that the prince may 
be destroyed." 

In the end, things work out a little differently: Pausanias in fact 
loses the chariot race, but nevertheless "wins" in a sufficiently 
hubris-inducing way. (And Themistocles will suffer the same fate.) 

I think there was a deal worked out between the representatives of 
Gaea and Artemis, in Ch38. Infuriatingly, Latro doesn't say what 
happened at this meeting, finishing with Elata murmuring, "Now we 
can begin." 

So I don't know what Gaea gets in exchange for Pausanias' downfall -
 maybe a victory for her grand-daughters, the Amazons? 

>he's in big trouble with her.

But Artemis did get what she wanted - a "victory" for Pausanias, 
"accounted twice a hero among the strategem loving Greeks." Gaea 
presumably gets the consolation prize of a victory for her grand-
daughters, the Amazons.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:46:37 +0000

I've also been rereading in prep and realized that I never quite
worked this out:
who are the Sons of Sco**** (the bowmen -- I don't have the book to hand)?

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com
Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open
sewer and die.
  - Mel Brooks

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:58:00 +0000

>who are the Sons of Sco**** (the bowmen -- I don't have the book to hand)?

Sons of Scoloti = Scythians (or possibly some subdivision thereof),

Mo

Mo Holkar
Undying King Games
mo at ukg.co.uk
http://www.ukg.co.uk 

-- 
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.428 / Virus Database: 268.14.14/548 - Release Date: 23/11/2006 15:22

---

From: Michael Straight <mfstraight at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:02:02 +0000

> Corinth, telling him not to come back without gold.

Hmm. That's kind of a stretch.  Hard to believe, given Pausanias's
pride.  And would he really let Latro go, given that he believes that
with Latro at his side he has Nike there as well?  On the other hand,
he really wants that gold, and this is a way to break the truce
without being blamed.  And given the high regard he has for Latro's
opinions about the gods, he might feel that helping Latro was the way
to get the gods on his side.

The other problem is that this has to be a secret deal or Pausanias is
guilty of breaking the peace of the games.  But Pindaros implies that
everyone can see that Pausanias ended up gaining more than he lost.

I'd like to believe it if only because it means Pasicrates's fate
isn't quite as bleak as it appears.  The gods punishment on him was
pretty relentless from the moment he tried to have Latro whipped.

> hubris, specifically a victory in the chariot race.

> hubris-inducing way. (And Themistocles will suffer the same fate.)

I suppose this makes sense.  We see how Themistocles is being damned
by the Spartans' praise (this is their intention).  I guess we're
supposed to assume something similar will happen to Pausanias?

> happened at this meeting, finishing with Elata murmuring, "Now we

Especially since Latro promised Elata he would write down in his
journal what happened there.  This is one of the few places I think
Wolfe cheated, leaving out something he wanted left unsaid but that
Latro ought to have written.

>  maybe a victory for her grand-daughters, the Amazons?

Maybe, unlike Artemis, she thinks Pausanias's downfall will actually
be bad for Sparta in the long run.

> >But that's the opposite of what
> "accounted twice a hero among the strategem loving Greeks."

Yeah, that makes sense.  I'd forgotten about the meeting where some
kind of deal was struck between Artemis and Gaea.  But again, how can
Pausanias be "twice a hero" if his profit from Latro's escape is that
Latro secretly gives him the treasure (under the cover of Pasicrates
going to Tower Hill to get some gold)?

Rostrum

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:09:45 +0000

> Latro ought to have written.

Remember, other people have access to the scroll, and even the Latro du 
jour may have had his temporary reasons for censoring it. GW can use all 
of the devices presumably employed in "Seven American Nights" and 
"V.R.T." as well as deterioration due to extreme age.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

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From: Michael Straight <mfstraight at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:14:30 +0000

> "V.R.T." as well as deterioration due to extreme age.

But no one else can read it, except maybe Hegistratus (does his gift
allow him to read any language as well?), and he was at the meeting.

Rostrum

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From: Michael Straight <mfstraight at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:16:29 +0000

One other question.  Pindaros says that when Themistocles wins the
vase then gives it to the Amazon queen, "peace is forged between
Theseus's city and Theseus's foes."

Which of Athens's foes is he refering to here?  And how does
Themistocles's victory and/or gift to the Amazons accomplish it?  Does
Pindaros mean peace between the Athenians and the Amazons?

Rostrum

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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:47:14 +0000

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 04:16:29 +1100 Michael Straight 
>Pindaros mean peace between the Athenians and the Amazons?

Theseus was supposed to have kidnapped an Amazon & taken her as his 
wife. When the Amazons invaded Attica seeking revenge, Theseus 
defeated them.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 05:34:11 +0000

> allow him to read any language as well?), and he was at the meeting.

We only know it was written that no one admitted being able to read what 
Latro writes. Even if this is true, someone could still sneak in and 
erase or scrape off a recent entry they fear records something damning.