{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4777", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4777, "subject": "Essential Background Reading for Soldier Series", "messages": 13, "voices": 8, "first": "2006-11-30T22:17:31+00:00", "last": "2007-01-16T00:28:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-11-30T22:17:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Essential Background Reading for Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/30/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nTheseus was supposed to have kidnapped an Amazon & taken her as his\nwife. When the Amazons invaded Attica seeking revenge, Theseus\ndefeated them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Holy essential background reading, Batman! I wish I'd known that ten years ago.\n\nNow I'm wondering what else I need to have read.\n\nEssential:\n\n1. Story of Spartans slaughtering their slaves under pretext of\nmaking them citizens (I defy you to figure that one out just from\nWolfe's text.)\n\n2. Story of 300 Spartans at Thermopylae.\n\nLess important, but helpful:\n\n3. Sisyphus.\n\n4. Demeter and Persephone.\n\n5. Cupid and Psyche.\n\n(Lots more I'm forgetting)\n\nWhat else? Is there anything I'm going to definitely need to make\nsense of Soldier of Sidon?\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<823516.11996.qm@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-11-30T22:49:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Essential Background Reading for Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Straight wrote:\nWhat else? Is there anything I'm going to\ndefinitely need to make\nsense of Soldier of Sidon?\n\nRostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Illiad, Odyssey, Herodotus' histories, a good\ngeneral history of Rome that covers the etruscans and\nthe early Rebublic, a good book on Greek mythology (I\nlike Graves' Greek Myths because it offers alternate\nversions) Frank Miller's 300 (just kidding - it is\nentertaining as hell, though). That's all I can think\nof off the top of my head.\n\nDon\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7CFBF5CA-535B-4DB2-B262-4D1DDBC7F363@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-12-01T02:28:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Essential Background Reading for Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 30, 2006, at 5:17 PM, Michael Straight wrote:\nEssential:\n\n1. Story of Spartans slaughtering their slaves under pretext of\nmaking them citizens (I defy you to figure that one out just from\nWolfe's text.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does anybody have any leads on this? I can't find mention of it in \nHerodotus (doesn't mean it isn't in there, though) and I'd really \nlike to find a source to corroborate this.\n\nIt will make for interesting conversations when the 300 movie comes \nout. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061201024206.4E3A7DA84A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-12-01T02:41:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Essential Background Reading for Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "<7CFBF5CA-535B-4DB2-B262-4D1DDBC7F363@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:17:31 +1100 Michael Straight \n wrote:\n\nHoly essential background reading, Batman! I wish I'd known that \nten years ago.\n\nNow I'm wondering what else I need to have read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think knowing something about what happened afterwards is useful. \n\n\nPausanias was supposed to have conspired with the Persians with the \nintent of taking over one of the Spartan king positions. He was \nalso supposed to have plotted to arm & free the helots in supports \nof this coup (or something like that; can't remember exact \ndetails). He was betrayed, and the ephors/\"judges\" locked him up in \na temple & starved him to death.\n\nApart from the color this sheds on the Gaea/Artemis stuff, I think \nit also helps to make sense of the oracle spoken by Cleomenes at \nAcheron. \"Seek peace\" is obvious. \"Don't drink from Lethe's cup\" = \ndon't rely on Latro the forgetful as a talisman of vistory. \"Ask \nwho will make the defenders of Sestos yield\" = \"Hunger\", a warning \nabout his eventual fate.\n\nThemistocles was dogged by accusations of arrogance and corruption. \nInterestingly, one example of the former was supposed to have been \nhis building a temple to Artemis next to his house (or something \nlike that). He was exiled & then hounded out of Greece, also \naccused of Persian plots by the later Spartan leadership. He did in \nfact \"defect\", and ended up as an aristocratic subject of the Great \nKing in charge of .\n \nOne thing I don't quite understand is Gaea's alternative plan for \nthe helots: if she doesn't succeed with her Pausanias as helot-\nliberating king play, she will nevertheless use them to destroy \nSparta via an uprising. There was some kind of uprising in the next \ndecade, after an earthquake, but the Spartans suppressed it fairly \nquickly. After that I don't know of any real revolt until the \nhelots were \"freed\" a few centuries later by some of the later \nkings. Is it just that Gaea in this part of the world is too old & \nfeeble to make her plans work?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00ae01c714f4$e46ec970$bd287645@VALUED7B9600FA>", "from": { "name": "Alan Lewis", "address": "alanarc1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2006-12-01T03:00:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Essential Background Reading for Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "<823516.11996.qm@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What else? Is there anything I'm going to\ndefinitely need to make\nsense of Soldier of Sidon?\n\nRostrum" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Illiad, Odyssey, Herodotus' histories, a good\ngeneral history of Rome that covers the etruscans and\nthe early Rebublic, a good book on Greek mythology (I\nlike Graves' Greek Myths because it offers alternate\nversions) Frank Miller's 300 (just kidding - it is\nentertaining as hell, though). That's all I can think\nof off the top of my head.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One vote of respectful disagreement for all of the above. As far as I can \ntell, there is no required reading to make sense of Soldier of Sidon. It's \nnot without its mysterious passages, but its far more of a straight read \nthan Arete. That said,\n\n[potential slight spoilers to follow]\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\npassing knowledge of some basic Egyptian mythology and geography would be of \nuse, also throw in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, add a dash of King \nSolomon's Mines, along with knowledge of the search for the source of the \nNile a la Burton/Speke.\n\nAlan " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-12-01T05:20:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Essential Background Reading for Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "<20061201024206.4E3A7DA84A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 11/30/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\n[Stuff about the fates of Pausanius and Themistocles deleted]\n\nWow, Thalassocrat! You just made my head explode for the second time\nin 24 hours.\n\nI appreciate Don's suggestions to read the Illiad, Odyssey, and\nHerotidous -- all of them worth reading for their own sake, of course\n-- but I guess I was looking for something a little more specific.\nThalssocrat's two bits of information in this thread (Pausanius and\nthe stuff about the Amazons) just shed enormous amounts of light on\nthe plot for me.\n\nAre there other stories or facts like that in Homer or Herotidous I\nought to know?\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nils Göransson", "address": "nils.goransson at skatteverket.se" }, "date": "2006-12-01T06:30:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ang. Re: Essential Background Reading for Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi everybody!\nNo further enlightenment on the Soldier series, but if you enjoyed the \nEgyptian setting of the latest volume\nI urge you to seek out 'the Egyptian' by Mika Waltari, wich has some of \nthe same mood!\nVery good, still not Wolfe though -wonder when he writes the next one...\n\n\n\n\n\n\nThanx for all ideas,\n\n NissE" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-12-01T11:36:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Understanding Soldier?", "in_reply_to": "<823516.11996.qm@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Needed to understand SoldierofSidon? Time,the first two Latro books and \ndefinitely some knowledge of Egyptian mythology--many available resources \nthere, of course . And did I mention a fair amount of time?\n\n/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<351806.73176.qm@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-12-01T21:06:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Essential Background Reading for Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "<00ae01c714f4$e46ec970$bd287645@VALUED7B9600FA>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alan Lewis wrote:\nOne vote of respectful disagreement for all of the above. As far as I can \ntell, there is no required reading to make sense of Soldier of Sidon.\n \n My bad. I was a little dopey from cold meds and I read \"Soldier Series\" instead of Soldier of Sidon. You are correct Sir.\n \n Don\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-12-02T15:23:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Essential Background Reading for Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "<351806.73176.qm@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're both right! My first question was about background reading for\nthe first two books. Then I asked if there was anything I ought to\nread before starting Sidon.\n\n(Too late for that! Maybe I'll do some homework before the second\ntime through.)\n\nRostrum" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/1/06, don doggett wrote:\nMy bad. I was a little dopey from cold meds and I read \"Soldier Series\" instead of\nSoldier of Sidon. You are correct Sir." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2D0D4BD3-C7A6-4F4A-A44F-C633588B3750@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-01-14T23:27:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier if Sidon questions and spoilers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In case you didn't read Soldier of Sidon and are reading this, well, \nhey, what's taking you so long? It was good. Superbly done, in fact. \nBut please delete this mail or put it away and come back to it \nbecause I don't want to spoil it for you.\n\nOne of the things that really stood out about the book was the \noverall narative structure. The part of the book dealing with the \nvoyage down the river was smooth and sequential. Then there is the \nscene with the council discussing whether they should look for Kames \nand the mines, and it is really a discussion of whether or not the \nnarrative structure should be changed. I've always loved how Wolfe \ncan play games with your head by changing your expectations of the \nstory. Sure enough, chaos ensues after Latro leaves the boat. The end \nof the book basically \"perks up\" as he starts returning north.\n\nI've got a couple of questions that I'm wondering if anybody caught \nanswers to in their readings so far.\n\n1) Does anybody know what the Hellenes actually call the last page? \n(page 302)\n\n2) Was the bulls-head amulet of Myt-ser'eu's the one that Sehuset \nmade for her to seal her from Sabra? Or was it the one that he told \nLatro would ensure her loyalty to him?\n\n3) Anybody know what it was about Thotmaktef that Latro, upon first \nmeeting him, thought \"Perhaps I should not write of it at all/\" Was \nit just that he first noticed Thoth, the baboon at this point? (page 48)\n\n4) What the heck is in that scroll that he recovered from the temple \nbeyond the last temple? I'm wondering if that is actually mentioned \nand I just missed it.\n\n5) Is it too obvious, given the lion symbolism, that Mehit is the \nvery goddess who wounded his memory in the beginning? One thing that \nworks against this is the passage where he helps Arensnuphis hunt \nher, and Latro thinks he sees astonishment in her eyes in being seen \nby him.\n\n6) The glossary entry on Falcata indicates that she is, in fact, a \nFalcata. I seem to remember a passage in the first book where it is \nsaid that Falcata was actually a kopis. I wonder if there is anything \nto this.\n\nThanks for your thoughts." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Rabin", "address": "wolfe-lists at danrabin.com" }, "date": "2007-01-15T01:47:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier if Sidon questions and spoilers", "in_reply_to": "<2D0D4BD3-C7A6-4F4A-A44F-C633588B3750@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Transentient asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) Does anybody know what the Hellenes actually call the last page? \n(page 302)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The best candidate I could find in an hour of online research was \n\"colophon\". This is the term used today for an account of the making \nof the book, such as the designer, the type selected, the paper and \nprinting process chosen, the binder, and so forth. As in \"written by \nLucius on papyrus of Riverland with reed pen\".\n\nI thought this was just Wolfe being playful with the way he provides \na fictional providence for the work. Lucius has a vague notion that \nhe should be writing something like what I just suggested, only he \ncan't remember any of the facts he should set down. Anyhow, the \nstory isn't over just because the book is done. I think we're being \nset up for a sequel in Babylonia.\n\nOf course, at the end of _Soldier of Arete_ I thought we were going \nto have a sequel in Phoenicia, but Wolfe skipped over that and merely \ngave us Phoenicians.\n\n -- Dan Rabin" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-01-16T00:28:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier if Sidon questions and spoilers", "in_reply_to": "<2D0D4BD3-C7A6-4F4A-A44F-C633588B3750@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Was the bulls-head amulet of Myt-ser'eu's the one that Sehuset\nmade for her to seal her from Sabra? Or was it the one that he told\nLatro would ensure her loyalty to him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think they are the same.\n\nI remember Sabra claiming the amulet was Sehuset's tool for stealing\nMyt-ser'eu from Latro. But that was a lie designed to manipulate\nLatro into delivering his wife into Sabra's hands.\n\nI don't quite remember Sehuset telling Latro about an amulet to make\nhis wife loyal, but I would guess that was also a fiction designed to\ndo the opposite--get Latro to keep it safely around her neck--without\nhaving to explain everything about the danger of Sabra that Latro\nwould have forgotten that day.\n\nI think the item in your question #3 was what you said. Latro didn't\nwant to mention the baboon.\n\n-- Rostrum" } ] } ] }