{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4784", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4784, "subject": "Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "messages": 14, "voices": 8, "first": "2007-01-22T00:09:22+00:00", "last": "2007-02-27T16:07:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<39ed084f0701211609r1e8986aicfed6b7e93df81f6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-01-22T00:09:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is my first post to the list. Having discovered The Book of the New Sun\nand developed an almost fanatical devotion to Wolfe, I quickly gobbled up\nThe Urth of the New Sun and then The book of the Long Sun. I read too\nquickly, paying too little attention to detail, and so I am left with many\nquestions about all these books, with which I won't inundate the list all at\nonce. But until Powell's ships me my Short Sun trilogy, I hope to be able to\npick the list's brain on a couple points. First:\n\nThe pateras carry the \"voided cross\" and make the \"sign of addition.\" They\nalso carry a \"gammadion\" (whose gammas detach to become tools for the sacred\nwindows). Each of these symbols is highly suggestive for the Whorl and its\nculture in ways that I'm sure have occurred to you. Are \"cross\" and the\n\"gammadion\" supposed to be the same thing, or are they separate symbols?\n\nIn my too-fast reading of the series, the impression I got is that the\n\"voided cross\" and the \"gammadion\" were one and the same. But this simply\ncan't be right -- a cross is not a gammadion. (I can make a rather clumsy\nvoided cross out of *two* voided gammas by rotating one 180 degrees and then\naligning their stems vertically, but this would not be truly \"voided,\" and\nit is certainly not what anyone would really call a \"gammadion.\") If someone\ncan reassure me that there are two separate symbols carried by the pateras,\nthen I'll be most grateful." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-01-22T02:26:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0701211609r1e8986aicfed6b7e93df81f6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 21, 2007, at 7:09 PM, Matthew Groves wrote:\nThe pateras carry the \"voided cross\" and make the \"sign of \naddition.\" They also carry a \"gammadion\" (whose gammas detach to \nbecome tools for the sacred windows). Each of these symbols is \nhighly suggestive for the Whorl and its culture in ways that I'm \nsure have occurred to you. Are \"cross\" and the \"gammadion\" \nsupposed to be the same thing, or are they separate symbols?\n\nIn my too-fast reading of the series, the impression I got is that \nthe \"voided cross\" and the \"gammadion\" were one and the same. But \nthis simply can't be right -- a cross is not a gammadion. (I can \nmake a rather clumsy voided cross out of *two* voided gammas by \nrotating one 180 degrees and then aligning their stems vertically, \nbut this would not be truly \"voided,\" and it is certainly not what \nanyone would really call a \"gammadion.\") If someone can reassure me \nthat there are two separate symbols carried by the pateras, then \nI'll be most grateful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seems to me that you can make something of a voided cross out of four \ngammas, if you don't mind the arms of the cross being open at the ends.\n\nNow unfold each gamma, one northward, pivoting around its \nnorthernmost point, one eastward, one southward, one westward. You've \ngot something that looks like a manji or a swastika. That's a \ngammadion, right? Now suppose it's a little four-in-one pocket tool \nwhere each \"gamma\" is one of the tools, and it folds out if you want \nto use it.\n\nGive your IT staff these tools wear around their neck, then have them \nset up as clergy for interacting with the simulacrums of you and your \nfamily. Erase their memory of the lives they had before the ship \nembarked on its voyage and voila." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0701211827m19bd6ed8mb7fad2afe72c535@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-01-22T02:27:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it turns out the answer was right in front of me if I'd had a little\nmore imagination or more knowledge of heraldic crosses. I just started\nleafing through the Long Sun novels in search of the first mention of the\ngammadion. The \"voided cross\" and the \"gammadion\" are indeed the same\nthing, as proved in this passage (on p. 172 in the omnibus edition \"Litany\nof the Long Sun\") when Silk is warding Teasel's window from the return of\nthe creature that had preyed upon her in the night. Silk leans out the\nwindow to reach outside wall above it, and...\n\n\"With the pointed corner of the one of the four gammadions that made up the\ncross, he scratched the sign of addition on the bricks.\"\n\nWhen I first read this, I struggled to imagine a voided cross each of whose\nfour arms was itself a swastika, and I was more confused than ever. But\nit's much simpler than this, as I learned after a little poking around on\nthe internet:\n\nIf you take a Greek cross (whose arms are of equal length) and you void it\n*all the way through the ends*, then you end up with four gammas in four\ndifferent orientations. (I wish I could draw this for you, but no doubt you\nall know this already and are wondering why it ever puzzled me in the first\nplace; but I was imagining an outline drawing of a cross (i.e., with\n*closed* ends), and so I couldn't pick out any satisfactory gammas.)\nApparently, any such symbol, being made up of gammas, may be called a\n\"gammadion,\" not just those that are pinwheel-like (although I'm guessing it\nhas to be symmetrical)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0701211841n626c4928sce7b4e7d98661b35@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-01-22T02:41:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0701211827m19bd6ed8mb7fad2afe72c535@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "transentient wrote:\n\"Seems to me that you can make something of a voided cross out of four\ngammas, if you don't mind the arms of the cross being open at the ends.\"\n\nYeah, this is the conclusion I came to belatedly.\n\n\"Now unfold each gamma, one northward, pivoting around its\nnorthernmost point, one eastward, one southward, one westward. You've\ngot something that looks like a manji or a swastika.\"\n\nAh, *now* I get it! Talk about an epiphany! Thanks bunches!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070122043136.69855.qmail@web82101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Chris Mulder", "address": "chris_mulder at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-01-22T04:31:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0701211827m19bd6ed8mb7fad2afe72c535@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the more I read, the less of a firm idea I have of what it looks like. I guess the sign of addition is a plus-type cross, but a voided cross? what does it mean to void a cross? Like a null sign through a cross? or like the four 90 degree angles of a maltese cross? A photo would be most illuminating.\n Welcome, Groves, I'm a reader and lurker who rarely posts too. Though I have read about 40% of the entire archive, in order.\n And it was very informative. Keep after it.\n \n cm\n\nMatthew Groves wrote:\n Well, it turns out the answer was right in front of me if I'd had a little more imagination or more knowledge of heraldic crosses. I just started leafing through the Long Sun novels in search of the first mention of the gammadion. The \"voided cross\" and the \"gammadion\" are indeed the same thing, as proved in this passage (on p. 172 in the omnibus edition \"Litany of the Long Sun\") when Silk is warding Teasel's window from the return of the creature that had preyed upon her in the night. Silk leans out the window to reach outside wall above it, and... \n \n \"With the pointed corner of the one of the four gammadions that made up the cross, he scratched the sign of addition on the bricks.\"\n \n When I first read this, I struggled to imagine a voided cross each of whose four arms was itself a swastika, and I was more confused than ever. But it's much simpler than this, as I learned after a little poking around on the internet: \n \n If you take a Greek cross (whose arms are of equal length) and you void it *all the way through the ends*, then you end up with four gammas in four different orientations. (I wish I could draw this for you, but no doubt you all know this already and are wondering why it ever puzzled me in the first place; but I was imagining an outline drawing of a cross ( i.e., with *closed* ends), and so I couldn't pick out any satisfactory gammas.) Apparently, any such symbol, being made up of gammas, may be called a \"gammadion,\" not just those that are pinwheel-like (although I'm guessing it has to be symmetrical). " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7184BACC-37ED-4992-A4FC-B0DA7E2EB218@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-01-22T05:03:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<20070122043136.69855.qmail@web82101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 21, 2007, at 9:31 PM, Chris Mulder wrote:\nWell, the more I read, the less of a firm idea I have of what it \nlooks like. I guess the sign of addition is a plus-type cross, but \na voided cross? what does it mean to void a cross? Like a null sign \nthrough a cross? or like the four 90 degree angles of a maltese \ncross? A photo would be most illuminating." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Some of the interesting posts on this topic in the archive:\n\nReferencing a Wolfe Q&A session:\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0528.shtml\n\nThe full Q&A post, since I have trouble finding it when I want it:\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0511.shtml\n\nOlder:\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0002/0059.shtml\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0002/0063.shtml\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0005/0312.shtml" } ] }, { "message_id": "<668171.90177.qm@web82101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Chris Mulder", "address": "chris_mulder at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-01-22T05:26:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<7184BACC-37ED-4992-A4FC-B0DA7E2EB218@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess that's sort of what I pictured - but I smile to think that Wolfe had in mind an arrangement of Allen Wrenches. Though they would be most handy to work on computers.\n \n cm\n\nMatthew King wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 21, 2007, at 9:31 PM, Chris Mulder wrote:\nWell, the more I read, the less of a firm idea I have of what it \nlooks like. I guess the sign of addition is a plus-type cross, but \na voided cross? what does it mean to void a cross? Like a null sign \nthrough a cross? or like the four 90 degree angles of a maltese \ncross? A photo would be most illuminating." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some of the interesting posts on this topic in the archive:\n\nReferencing a Wolfe Q&A session:\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0528.shtml\n\nThe full Q&A post, since I have trouble finding it when I want it:\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0511.shtml\n\nOlder:\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0002/0059.shtml\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0002/0063.shtml\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0005/0312.shtml" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070122052745.92169.qmail@web82110.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Chris Mulder", "address": "chris_mulder at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-01-22T05:27:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<668171.90177.qm@web82101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops. Here's a link I forgot.\n \n http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_wrench\n \n cm\n\nChris Mulder wrote:\n I guess that's sort of what I pictured - but I smile to think that Wolfe had in mind an arrangement of Allen Wrenches. Though they would be most handy to work on computers.\n \n cm\n\nMatthew King wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 21, 2007, at 9:31 PM, Chris Mulder wrote:\nWell, the more I read, the less of a firm idea I have of what it \nlooks like. I guess the sign of addition is a plus-type cross, but \na voided cross? what does it mean to void a cross? Like a null sign \nthrough a cross? or like the four 90 degree angles of a maltese \ncross? A photo would be most illuminating." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some of the interesting posts on this topic in the archive:\n\nReferencing a Wolfe Q&A session:\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0528.shtml\n\nThe full Q&A post, since I have trouble finding it when I want it:\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0511.shtml\n\nOlder:\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0002/0059.shtml\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0002/0063.shtml\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0005/0312.shtml" } ] }, { "message_id": "<473581.1169451011010.JavaMail.root@fed1wml10.mgt.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2007-01-22T07:30:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<20070122052745.92169.qmail@web82110.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do agree with the old idea that the voided cross has been voided by taking away the crucifixion imagery and the body of christ from it and assimilating it into Typhon's family totem, representationally. However, the gammadions could very well bisect a point that would resemble a slash through the cross. Uggh.\n\nMarc Aramini" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---- Matthew King wrote: \n\nOn Jan 21, 2007, at 9:31 PM, Chris Mulder wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, the more I read, the less of a firm idea I have of what it \nlooks like. I guess the sign of addition is a plus-type cross, but \na voided cross? what does it mean to void a cross? Like a null sign \nthrough a cross? or like the four 90 degree angles of a maltese \ncross? A photo would be most illuminating." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Some of the interesting posts on this topic in the archive:\n\nReferencing a Wolfe Q&A session:\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0528.shtml\n\nThe full Q&A post, since I have trouble finding it when I want it:\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0511.shtml\n\nOlder:\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0002/0059.shtml\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0002/0063.shtml\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0005/0312.shtml\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11917.67.142.130.30.1169457389.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-01-22T09:16:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<473581.1169451011010.JavaMail.root@fed1wml10.mgt.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Enough.\n\n\nhttp://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=gammadion&btnG=Search+Images\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6084.67.142.130.30.1169457579.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-01-22T09:19:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<11917.67.142.130.30.1169457389.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enough.\n\n\nhttp://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=gammadion&btnG=Search+Images" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should add: top row, second from the left.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<00E76A0F-63D7-4D8F-8AF6-C0D65294A5CE@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-01-22T16:23:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<6084.67.142.130.30.1169457579.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jan 22, 2007, at 2:19 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nEnough.\n\nhttp://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=gammadion&btnG=Search+Images" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I should add: top row, second from the left." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That does seem to be what Wolfe described in the Q&A. If a gamma can \nbe considered to have _a_ point, then I take that to be the right angle.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "<45B53079.1070205@joncapps.net>", "from": { "name": "Jon Capps", "address": "jon at joncapps.net" }, "date": "2007-01-22T21:45:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<473581.1169451011010.JavaMail.root@fed1wml10.mgt.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aramini1 at cox.net wrote:\nHowever, the gammadions could very well bisect a point that would resemble a slash through the cross. Uggh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seriously doubt Wolfe intended the voided cross to be interpreted as \none with a slash through it. See:\n\nhttp://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/voided.html\n\nwhich says: [The Voided Cross] is simply a heraldic term for when only \nthe edge of the cross is traced. It can be any shape or form of cross.\n\nSo, a voided cross is just the outline of a cross, which can be \napproximated quite closely with four gammas.\n\njon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-02-27T16:07:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's gammadion and the voided cross", "in_reply_to": "<45B53079.1070205@joncapps.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm coming to this late but I'm fairly certain this is the cross Wolfe\ndescribed in his Q&A:\n\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/voided_cross.htm" } ] } ] }