{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4786", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4786, "subject": "The ending of Soldier of Arete", "messages": 7, "voices": 7, "first": "2007-01-29T17:20:44+00:00", "last": "2007-02-03T23:57:32+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000801c743c9$d2db66b0$29991152@tom00271541240>", "from": { "name": "Tom Foster", "address": "tbfoster at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2007-01-29T17:20:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The ending of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A long-time lurker writes, though I have posted several times before in the past...\n\nI've been re-reading the first two Latro novels in preparation for 'Soldier of Sidon', and have just finished 'Arete'. I remember finding the ending confusing on first reading several years ago, and had hoped it would be a bit clearer to me this time round, having read many posts in the urth archives, and some Robert Graves and Herodotus. However, I still don't really understand what happens, event-by-event so to speak (though much of the rest of the events of the two books as much clearer this time round, mainly thanks to past posts on this list).\n\nThe point where I start to lose my way is Latro's dream whilst Pindaros is reciting poetry for him (pp334 of the hardback). What exactly happens here? Why does Polos say that he \"wants to love\" and \"will love\" Pasicrates, who has treated him badly in the past? I believe Latro is cured of his moroseness because Pasicrates is forced to forgive him, but I thought that there was more to his depression than that - isn't it to do with Pharetra and the whole betrayal thing (the manumission ceremony)?\n\nIs Anysia an aspect of Artemis? And is Elata on Latro's side or not? I always thought that she was, but in the final pages it seems like she turns against him. And what happens during and after the chariot race? Latro loses the race deliberately, right? Yet Pausanius is still honoured and allows Latro to leave? So many questions! As you can see, I'm really lost here! I know there are some very knowledgeable people on this list, so I'm hoping someone can take the time to clarify things for me a bit before I start on 'Sidon'.\n\n\nTom" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070130123344.B6518DA84E@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-01-30T12:33:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The ending of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "<000801c743c9$d2db66b0$29991152@tom00271541240>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:20:44 +1100 Tom Foster \n wrote:\nA long-time lurker writes, though I have posted several times \nbefore in the past...\n\nI've been re-reading the first two Latro novels in preparation for " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'Soldier of Sidon', and have just finished 'Arete'. I remember \nfinding the ending confusing on first reading several years ago, \nand had hoped it would be a bit clearer to me this time round, \nhaving read many posts in the urth archives, and some Robert \nGraves and Herodotus. However, I still don't really understand \nwhat happens, event-by-event so to speak (though much of the rest \nof the events of the two books as much clearer this time round, \nmainly thanks to past posts on this list)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The ending is pretty confusing. I posted my interpretation a few \nweeks ago - should be in the archives, fwiw.\n\nOn Polos: Pasicrates is pederastically infatuated with him and has \nmolested him at least once in the past. Polos now says that he'll \ntry to be Pasicrates' lover if he'll just let go of his anger at \nLatro. This is .... icky.\n\nOn Latro's depression: I've never understood why Pasicrates is the \ncause of this, either." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50479CED-1197-44FF-9C81-6718BCF9C365@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Joel and Rachel Wilhelm", "address": "eleysium at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-02-03T14:24:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The ending of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "<20070130123344.B6518DA84E@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Latro is depressed about the slaughter of the helots by the Spartans, \nnot by Pasicrates.\n\nJoel" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\nOn Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:20:44 +1100 Tom Foster\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A long-time lurker writes, though I have posted several times\nbefore in the past...\n\nI've been re-reading the first two Latro novels in preparation for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'Soldier of Sidon', and have just finished 'Arete'. I remember\nfinding the ending confusing on first reading several years ago,\nand had hoped it would be a bit clearer to me this time round,\nhaving read many posts in the urth archives, and some Robert\nGraves and Herodotus. However, I still don't really understand\nwhat happens, event-by-event so to speak (though much of the rest\nof the events of the two books as much clearer this time round,\nmainly thanks to past posts on this list)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The ending is pretty confusing. I posted my interpretation a few\nweeks ago - should be in the archives, fwiw.\n\nOn Polos: Pasicrates is pederastically infatuated with him and has\nmolested him at least once in the past. Polos now says that he'll\ntry to be Pasicrates' lover if he'll just let go of his anger at\nLatro. This is .... icky.\n\nOn Latro's depression: I've never understood why Pasicrates is the\ncause of this, either." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-02-03T20:50:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The ending of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "<50479CED-1197-44FF-9C81-6718BCF9C365@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And by his dead Amazon lover.\n\nBut there is undeniably something going on with Pasicrates as well, because \nof the dreams, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Latro is depressed about the slaughter of the helots by the Spartans,\nnot by Pasicrates.\n\nJoel" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\nOn Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:20:44 +1100 Tom Foster\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A long-time lurker writes, though I have posted several times\nbefore in the past...\n\nI've been re-reading the first two Latro novels in preparation for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "'Soldier of Sidon', and have just finished 'Arete'. I remember\nfinding the ending confusing on first reading several years ago,\nand had hoped it would be a bit clearer to me this time round,\nhaving read many posts in the urth archives, and some Robert\nGraves and Herodotus. However, I still don't really understand\nwhat happens, event-by-event so to speak (though much of the rest\nof the events of the two books as much clearer this time round,\nmainly thanks to past posts on this list)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The ending is pretty confusing. I posted my interpretation a few\nweeks ago - should be in the archives, fwiw.\n\nOn Polos: Pasicrates is pederastically infatuated with him and has\nmolested him at least once in the past. Polos now says that he'll\ntry to be Pasicrates' lover if he'll just let go of his anger at\nLatro. This is .... icky.\n\nOn Latro's depression: I've never understood why Pasicrates is the\ncause of this, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4634.67.142.130.11.1170538960.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-02-03T21:42:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The ending of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't Pasicrates get him to order Polos to obey him?\n\nI don't think pederasty sits too well with Latro, somehow.\n\n\n\n.\n\n___" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And by his dead Amazon lover.\n\nBut there is undeniably something going on with Pasicrates as well,\nbecause\nof the dreams, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Latro is depressed about the slaughter of the helots by the Spartans,\nnot by Pasicrates.\n\nJoel" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\nOn Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:20:44 +1100 Tom Foster\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "A long-time lurker writes, though I have posted several times\nbefore in the past...\n\nI've been re-reading the first two Latro novels in preparation for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "'Soldier of Sidon', and have just finished 'Arete'. I remember\nfinding the ending confusing on first reading several years ago,\nand had hoped it would be a bit clearer to me this time round,\nhaving read many posts in the urth archives, and some Robert\nGraves and Herodotus. However, I still don't really understand\nwhat happens, event-by-event so to speak (though much of the rest\nof the events of the two books as much clearer this time round,\nmainly thanks to past posts on this list)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The ending is pretty confusing. I posted my interpretation a few\nweeks ago - should be in the archives, fwiw.\n\nOn Polos: Pasicrates is pederastically infatuated with him and has\nmolested him at least once in the past. Polos now says that he'll\ntry to be Pasicrates' lover if he'll just let go of his anger at\nLatro. This is .... icky.\n\nOn Latro's depression: I've never understood why Pasicrates is the\ncause of this, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-02-03T22:55:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The ending of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "<4634.67.142.130.11.1170538960.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't Pasicrates get him to order Polos to obey him?\n\nI don't think pederasty sits too well with Latro, somehow.\nPasicrates did get Latro to order Polos to obey him, but that was much \nearlier than the ending and Latro would have killed Pasicrates then except \nhe could not get Polos to actually tell him what had happened. Much trouble \navoided by many and maybe much trouble created for some by a few sword \nstrokes.\n\n\n\n.\n\n___" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And by his dead Amazon lover.\n\nBut there is undeniably something going on with Pasicrates as well,\nbecause\nof the dreams, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Latro is depressed about the slaughter of the helots by the Spartans,\nnot by Pasicrates.\n\nJoel" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\nOn Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:20:44 +1100 Tom Foster\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "A long-time lurker writes, though I have posted several times\nbefore in the past...\n\nI've been re-reading the first two Latro novels in preparation for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "'Soldier of Sidon', and have just finished 'Arete'. I remember\nfinding the ending confusing on first reading several years ago,\nand had hoped it would be a bit clearer to me this time round,\nhaving read many posts in the urth archives, and some Robert\nGraves and Herodotus. However, I still don't really understand\nwhat happens, event-by-event so to speak (though much of the rest\nof the events of the two books as much clearer this time round,\nmainly thanks to past posts on this list)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The ending is pretty confusing. I posted my interpretation a few\nweeks ago - should be in the archives, fwiw.\n\nOn Polos: Pasicrates is pederastically infatuated with him and has\nmolested him at least once in the past. Polos now says that he'll\ntry to be Pasicrates' lover if he'll just let go of his anger at\nLatro. This is .... icky.\n\nOn Latro's depression: I've never understood why Pasicrates is the\ncause of this, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nTalk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger.\nhttp://get.live.com/messenger/overview\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<56462B8A-BE13-40D9-8323-544C1B81B8CA@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-02-03T23:57:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The ending of Soldier of Arete", "in_reply_to": "<4634.67.142.130.11.1170538960.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know there is at least one passage that makes explicit Latro's \ndisgust for Pasicrates' love for Polos.\n\nI guess it just wasn't the kind of thing a Roman Centurion - turned - \nmerc like Latro would be into." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 3, 2007, at 4:42 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nDidn't Pasicrates get him to order Polos to obey him?\n\nI don't think pederasty sits too well with Latro, somehow." } ] } ] }