{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4802", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4802, "subject": "Auk's fate?", "messages": 24, "voices": 14, "first": "2007-03-29T21:09:35+00:00", "last": "2007-04-06T23:32:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<33f9c3360703291409m87698bey136bf57104c1c100@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred", "address": "lucidprevention at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-03-29T21:09:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's fate?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I'm new to all of this, and I've been searching these archives for a while\nnow. I've not been able to find much discussion on Auk, especially in the\nshort sun books. In RTTW, Horn/Silk says, \"I struck Jahlee with my fists,\nand when she fell I kicked her like Auk. A day may come when I can forgive\nmyself of that.\"\n\n Why did he kick Auk (or did he mean he kicked her like Auk might have or\nsomething?)? One of the most frustrating things about these books was\nwaiting to hear about Auk, and then when he's mentioned, he gets only a\npassing mention in an earlier chapter with Hide and his village. What\nhappened with Auk?\n\n Thank you very much." } ] }, { "message_id": "<01DFFDE7-7455-43E4-BE5C-02CD4BDDCAF2@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-03-30T03:06:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's fate?", "in_reply_to": "<33f9c3360703291409m87698bey136bf57104c1c100@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think when I read that, I just imagined Auk kicking a whore. I \nthink he did mean the he kicked Jahlee _in the same fashion_ as Auk \nwould have, but there may be a reference to a specific ocurrance that \nI don't remember. Interesting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 29, 2007, at 5:09 PM, Fred wrote:\n I'm new to all of this, and I've been searching these archives for \na while now. I've not been able to find much discussion on Auk, \nespecially in the short sun books. In RTTW, Horn/Silk says, \"I \nstruck Jahlee with my fists, and when she fell I kicked her like \nAuk. A day may come when I can forgive myself of that.\"\n\n Why did he kick Auk (or did he mean he kicked her like Auk might \nhave or something?)? One of the most frustrating things about these \nbooks was waiting to hear about Auk, and then when he's mentioned, \nhe gets only a passing mention in an earlier chapter with Hide and \nhis village. What happened with Auk?\n\n Thank you very much.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0703310744r726fc96btd538e2c8652362cf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-03-31T14:44:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's fate?", "in_reply_to": "<01DFFDE7-7455-43E4-BE5C-02CD4BDDCAF2@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been a little while since I read the books, but in The Book of\nthe Long Sun, (Horn and Nettle write that) Patera Silk shrives Auk,\nand the content of his shriving is, among other things, that he struck\nand kicked Chenille when she spurned his gift (I forget what the gift\nwas). I seem to recall he had already been shriven for this by Silk's\npredecessor, Patera Pike, but his guilt is so great that he confesses\nagain to Silk. Anyway, after Silk/Horn kills Jahlee, he also is\nunable to forgive himself. I suppose the gift Jahlee spurns is\nSilk/Horn's forgiveness. He invites her into his family in spite of\nthe attack that nearly killed Sinew, and she tries to kill Horn's\nwife.\n\nI like Auk too, especially in that pair of scenes surrounding Silk's\ncaper at Blood's villa -- his shriving beforehand and his laughter at\nSilk's adventure afterward. He's a great foil for Silk. As for what\nhappened to him, we're just not given that much information." } ] }, { "message_id": "<460E88F7.5070700@sbcglobal.net>", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "jazzy_jeeves at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2007-03-31T16:14:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's fate?", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0703310744r726fc96btd538e2c8652362cf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been a while since I read the books too (although I'm currently \nre-reading Long Sun and am enjoying it so much that I'll most likely \nfollow that up with Short Sun), but I think I remember reading that Auk \nand Chenille wound up on Green where they were survived for several \nyears before being killed. I don't have a reference to point to, \nthough, and the way the the books are written makes it difficult to look \nthings up unless you already know where they are. \n\nDoes anybody else recall what I'm recalling, or am I completely off base?\n\nCharles" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nI like Auk too, especially in that pair of scenes surrounding Silk's\ncaper at Blood's villa -- his shriving beforehand and his laughter at\nSilk's adventure afterward. He's a great foil for Silk. As for what\nhappened to him, we're just not given that much information." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2007-03-31T20:53:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's fate?", "in_reply_to": "<460E88F7.5070700@sbcglobal.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Auk is still alive when Horn runs into him on Green. I don't recall any \ndirect reference to his demise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's been a while since I read the books too (although I'm currently\nre-reading Long Sun and am enjoying it so much that I'll most likely\nfollow that up with Short Sun), but I think I remember reading that Auk\nand Chenille wound up on Green where they were survived for several\nyears before being killed. I don't have a reference to point to,\nthough, and the way the the books are written makes it difficult to look\nthings up unless you already know where they are.\n\nDoes anybody else recall what I'm recalling, or am I completely off base?\n\nCharles\n\n\n\nMatthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I like Auk too, especially in that pair of scenes surrounding Silk's\ncaper at Blood's villa -- his shriving beforehand and his laughter at\nSilk's adventure afterward. He's a great foil for Silk. As for what\nhappened to him, we're just not given that much information." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070402065008.A9226DA82D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2007-04-02T06:50:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's fate?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:09:35 +1000 Fred \nwrote:\nI'm new to all of this, and I've been searching these archives for " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a while\nnow. I've not been able to find much discussion on Auk, especially " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in the\nshort sun books. In RTTW, Horn/Silk says, \"I struck Jahlee with my " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "fists,\nand when she fell I kicked her like Auk. A day may come when I can " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "forgive\nmyself of that.\"\n\nWhy did he kick Auk (or did he mean he kicked her like Auk might \nhave or\nsomething?)? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somewhere early on in Long Sun, we learn that Auk once kicked a man \nto death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the most frustrating things about these books \nwas\nwaiting to hear about Auk, and then when he's mentioned, he gets \nonly a\npassing mention in an earlier chapter with Hide and his village. \nWhat\nhappened with Auk?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is very frustrating. SilkHorn meets Chenille (and Auk? can't \nrememebr) in the cellar of Sinew's house on green, but we learn \nabsolutely nothing about what they said to each other. \n\nHowever I think it's pretty easy to guess what happened afterwards. \nThis meeting happens shortly after SilkHorn and his little army of \nastral-travelling mercenaries have cleared the old city on green of \ninhumi. These inhumi were holding A & C's children hostage. \nSilkHorn would have reconciled Sinew's villagers with Chenille, and \nshe & her colleagues would have gone back to the city to claim back \nher children, and to claim the city for humans, guarding it against \nthe return of inhumi. This would have fulfilled the hope of the \nNeighbor when he set Horn the task of clearing the sewer, that by \ndoing so the sewer might be cleared forever.\n\nI think you can guess other things about Auk. It must have been Auk \nwith his preternatural mechanical insight who reprogrammed his \nlander so that it would fly between Green & Blue under inhumi \ncontrol. \n\nLess certainly, I feel pretty sure that Pas gave Auk this insight \nand sent him from the Whorl just in order that Auk would build a \nnew Mainframe for Pas & the others to dwell in & rule from. In a \nsense the inhumi performed a valuable service in taking Auk \nprisoner before he could do this." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0704021701v2360cf16q19d55b82005ea655@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-03T00:01:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's fate?", "in_reply_to": "<20070402065008.A9226DA82D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*thalassocrat wrote: *Somewhere early on in Long Sun, we learn that Auk once\nkicked a man\nto death.\n\nThat's right -- I said earlier he kicked Chenille, but that's wrong. During\nthe shriving, Auk says:\n \"I was going to kick her. I didn't, but if I had I'd probably have killed\nher. I kicked a man to death, once. That was part of what I told Patera\nPike.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070404135141.NRBL23423.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2007-04-04T13:51:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<20070402065008.A9226DA82D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been away so much that I may have missed it, but have we \ndiscussed \"Memorare\" here yet?\n\nSpoiler space\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nI was struck by the fact that Wolfe makes himself the godplaying dead \nman. It would be easy to have the statue be that of \"Richard Nixon\" \nor \"Hitler\" or someone else, but Wolfe takes upon himself the role of \ngod-playing tyrant. He seems to be saying that he's as potentially \nevil as anyone else. Salvation is only by grace, as the prayers and \ntitle indicate.\n Which raised to me another question/dimension of the story: \nthe persons sent back to earth by the Wolfegod. Are these the readers \nof the story? Is Wolfe suggesting that his own readers move back into \nthe world to do good (he hopes), but that any anti-Wolfe would also \nbe sending readers back into the world for evil purposes?\n Anyway, I thought this was excellent vintage-Wolfe novella, \nmultidimensional and fully textured. Anybody want to talk about it?\n\nNutria\n\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "<15832.67.142.130.12.1175697235.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-04T14:33:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<20070404135141.NRBL23423.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neat website, James.\n\nI especially liked this:\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com/miscellaneous/the-menace-of-chinese-food/\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7FD1ECE7-EFCD-4DE3-97D5-765C00969D5C@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-04T15:20:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<20070404135141.NRBL23423.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 4, 2007, at 8:51 AM, James B. Jordan wrote:\nI've been away so much that I may have missed it, but have we \ndiscussed \"Memorare\" here yet?\n\nSpoiler space\n\n\nI was struck by the fact that Wolfe makes himself the godplaying \ndead man. It would be easy to have the statue be that of \"Richard \nNixon\" or \"Hitler\" or someone else, but Wolfe takes upon himself \nthe role of god-playing tyrant. He seems to be saying that he's as \npotentially evil as anyone else. Salvation is only by grace, as the \nprayers and title indicate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wondered if anyone else would think the statue was of Wolfe. Is \nthe GW in Memorare the first head of Cerberus? That seems like too \nmuch of a closed circle.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "<86ejn05exv.fsf@elan.rh.rit.edu>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-04T15:37:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<20070404135141.NRBL23423.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"James B. Jordan\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been away so much that I may have missed it, but have we \ndiscussed \"Memorare\"\nhere yet?\n\nSpoiler space\n\nI was struck by the fact that Wolfe makes himself the godplaying \ndead man. It\nwould be easy to have the statue be that of \"Richard Nixon\" or \n\"Hitler\" or someone\nelse, but Wolfe takes upon himself the role of god-playing \ntyrant. He seems to be\nsaying that he's as potentially evil as anyone else. Salvation \nis only by grace,\nas the prayers and title indicate.\n Which raised to me another question/dimension of the \nstory: the persons\nsent back to earth by the Wolfegod. Are these the readers of the \nstory? Is Wolfe\nsuggesting that his own readers move back into the world to do \ngood (he hopes),\nbut that any anti-Wolfe would also be sending readers back into \nthe world for evil\npurposes?\n Anyway, I thought this was excellent vintage-Wolfe \n novella,\nmultidimensional and fully textured. Anybody want to talk about \n it?\n\nNutria\n\nJames B. Jordan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be facetious for a moment, doesn't it make perfect sense for \nthe godplaying dead man to be Wolfe, the author of the story? \nAfter all, the story will be read long after he's dead; the author \nhas the power of a god (sort of); and there is no acceptable \ntheodicy for the inhabitants of a story - any evil done to them is \nfully purposed, thought through, and carried out by the author." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Gwern\nInquiring minds want to know." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070404161811.HHCC21439.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2007-04-04T16:18:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<7FD1ECE7-EFCD-4DE3-97D5-765C00969D5C@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:20 AM 4/4/2007, you wrote:\nOn Apr 4, 2007, at 8:51 AM, James B. Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've been away so much that I may have missed it, but have we\ndiscussed \"Memorare\" here yet?\n\nSpoiler space\n\n\nI was struck by the fact that Wolfe makes himself the godplaying\ndead man. It would be easy to have the statue be that of \"Richard\nNixon\" or \"Hitler\" or someone else, but Wolfe takes upon himself\nthe role of god-playing tyrant. He seems to be saying that he's as\npotentially evil as anyone else. Salvation is only by grace, as the\nprayers and title indicate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wondered if anyone else would think the statue was of Wolfe. Is\nthe GW in Memorare the first head of Cerberus? That seems like too\nmuch of a closed circle.\n\nMatthew" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess one would put the Wolfe identification into the category of a \nmcguffin (?), something we don't have to know to get the story. But \nthe statue looks just like Wolfe, and Wolfe has appeared in other \nstories by describing himself. Also, the main character (I don't have \nthe story before me) says that identifying the dead man will be \ndifficult for him -- being a character, how can he identify the \nauthor? I have not yet reread the story to see if there be other clues.\n Setting aside the Wolfe identification, I think we can see \nthat the \"heaven\" that turns out to be fake and deadly is a symbol \nfor socialism, fascism, and all the other anti-liberty things that \nWolfe is against. One is told that everything is fine, and one keeps \nbelieving everything is fine, but the reality is that things are not \nfine at all. It is all one man, one dictator, controlling it all, \nincluding controlling the mind. The comments in the story about \nAmerica no longer being a free country fit with this theme.\n Freedom as Wolfe's large thematic interest is, in this \nstory, linked with being realistic about life. Not living in a \nfantasy world (!). And it would seem that prayer and grace are ways \nof becoming realistic and being disabused of fantasy and fakery.\n Just some more observations.\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63E55E69-EDEF-43FE-9BF8-1E4F17838F99@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-04T16:52:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<20070404161811.HHCC21439.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 4, 2007, at 11:18 AM, James B. Jordan wrote:\nSetting aside the Wolfe identification, I think we can see that the \n\"heaven\" that turns out to be fake and deadly is a symbol for \nsocialism, fascism, and all the other anti-liberty things that \nWolfe is against. One is told that everything is fine, and one \nkeeps believing everything is fine, but the reality is that things \nare not fine at all. It is all one man, one dictator, controlling \nit all, including controlling the mind. The comments in the story \nabout America no longer being a free country fit with this theme." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is apparently writing a novel in the same \"milieu\" as \nMemorare: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=5&id=40135" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An Evil Guest, a novel-in-progress set in the same milieu as \n\"Memorare,\" also deals with freedom, Wolfe said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Mark Lewin previously posted the same link with a snippet about \n_Pirate Freedom_)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002901c7773c$27185e40$54ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-04-05T04:37:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<63E55E69-EDEF-43FE-9BF8-1E4F17838F99@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James B. Jordan wrote:\nI was struck by the fact that Wolfe makes himself the godplaying dead\nman. It would be easy to have the statue be that of \"Richard Nixon\"\nor \"Hitler\" or someone else, but Wolfe takes upon himself the role of\ngod-playing tyrant. He seems to be saying that he's as potentially\nevil as anyone else. Salvation is only by grace, as the prayers and\ntitle indicate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seeing the statue of the \"Founder\" in a fake paradise as representing Wolfe\nhas an obvious appeal, but . . . what about the larger part of the story,\nthe relationships among the four main characters? The memorials aren't built\nby those they honor; they are built by the dead person's\nrelatives/followers. If Wolfe is the honored dead, who built the memorial --\nand why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Setting aside the Wolfe identification, I think we can see\nthat the \"heaven\" that turns out to be fake and deadly is a symbol\nfor socialism, fascism, and all the other anti-liberty things that\nWolfe is against. One is told that everything is fine, and one keeps\nbelieving everything is fine, but the reality is that things are not\nfine at all. It is all one man, one dictator, controlling it all,\nincluding controlling the mind. The comments in the story about\nAmerica no longer being a free country fit with this theme.\n Freedom as Wolfe's large thematic interest is, in this\nstory, linked with being realistic about life. Not living in a\nfantasy world (!). And it would seem that prayer and grace are ways\nof becoming realistic and being disabused of fantasy and fakery.\n Just some more observations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fake paradise is shown to be foul and diseased by the neutral eye of the\ncamera. Only the glamour cast over the people who go there, the rose-colored\nview, permits them to see that world as much better than it really is. If\nWolfe sees himself as the giant bronze lord of such a sorry realm, what is\nhe saying about his legacy? More to the point; what is he saying about you\nand me and the rest of the faithful readers of his fantasies?\n\nMarch thought that the statue of the Founder looked like his father. Penny\n(Robin) thought it looked like her grandfather. If Wolfe was the Founder,\nwho are March and Sue/Robin/Penny?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070405154935.PHFC10053.eastrmmtao106.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2007-04-05T15:49:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<002901c7773c$27185e40$54ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:37 PM 4/4/2007, Roy wrote:\nJames B. Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was struck by the fact that Wolfe makes himself the godplaying dead\nman. It would be easy to have the statue be that of \"Richard Nixon\"\nor \"Hitler\" or someone else, but Wolfe takes upon himself the role of\ngod-playing tyrant. He seems to be saying that he's as potentially\nevil as anyone else. Salvation is only by grace, as the prayers and\ntitle indicate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seeing the statue of the \"Founder\" in a fake paradise as representing Wolfe\nhas an obvious appeal, but . . . what about the larger part of the story,\nthe relationships among the four main characters? The memorials aren't built\nby those they honor; they are built by the dead person's\nrelatives/followers. If Wolfe is the honored dead, who built the memorial --\nand why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Is it always the case that memorials are built by others? \nI'll have to reread this soon -- wanted to let it sit for a couple of \nweeks first. But if so, then Wolfe is saying something about how a \nman's work is often perverted by his disciples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fake paradise is shown to be foul and diseased by the neutral eye of the\ncamera. Only the glamour cast over the people who go there, the rose-colored\nview, permits them to see that world as much better than it really is. If\nWolfe sees himself as the giant bronze lord of such a sorry realm, what is\nhe saying about his legacy? More to the point; what is he saying about you\nand me and the rest of the faithful readers of his fantasies?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Given some of the weird misreadings that Wolfe has received, \nmaybe he IS saying something about \"us.\" :-( Or about some of us anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "March thought that the statue of the Founder looked like his father. Penny\n(Robin) thought it looked like her grandfather. If Wolfe was the Founder,\nwho are March and Sue/Robin/Penny?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Assuming Wolfe as Founder (which I've assumed, though of \ncourse that's debatable I guess), then they are either characters or \nelse descendants analogous to the Numbered folk in *5th Head.* Or \npossibly readers.\n BTW:\n Sue, from Susan - Susannah = Hebrew lily vegetable\n Robin = bird animal\n Penny = mineral\nSomething's going on there. I can see Penny as the name she has in a \nrealm ruled over by a metal man. Susannah was falsely accused of \nadultery and defended by Daniel -- I gather Sue was really guilty, \nshe wanted reconciliation.\n FWIW.\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c777ca$e9aa4de0$54ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-04-05T21:39:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<20070405154935.PHFC10053.eastrmmtao106.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James B. Jordan wrote:\n BTW:\n Sue, from Susan - Susannah = Hebrew lily vegetable\n Robin = bird animal\n Penny = mineral\nSomething's going on there. I can see Penny as the name she has in a\nrealm ruled over by a metal man. Susannah was falsely accused of\nadultery and defended by Daniel -- I gather Sue was really guilty,\nshe wanted reconciliation.\n FWIW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sue was admittedly guilty, which brings up another point. Male-female\nrelationships, more specifically, marriage, have a lot to do with this\nstory. I mean, March, out in the boondocks, is unexpectedly visited by both\nhis girlfriend and his ex-wife. They are soon followed by his ex-wife's\nestranged second husband, seeking to get her back. The girlfriend and second\nhusband get killed and March, after the main action of the story, goes back\nfor Robin (breaking a promise made to God in doing so [48]) and marries her\nagain; but this time she takes March's name.\n\nMs. Applefield, on one of the non-lethal memorials, had admonished Kit that\nher relationship with March as \"close enough\" to marriage wasn't good\nenough (23). Only marriage would do. Wife-beater Jim died nobly defending\nhis woman, but hadn't been above getting naked with Kit. March kept asking\nKit to marry him but she refused; he would hinder her career. Kim, the new\ngirl back on Earth who had never even met March, started coming on to him\nfor no good reason that I can see. Neither do I understand why March\nremarried Robin.\n\nThat's a lot to put in one story on one subject. How is it related to the\ndouble meaning of the title? How does the misremembered, incorrect\nconclusion March supplied to the title prayer (76) relate to the correct\nconclusion?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20070405214716.YLTY10053.eastrmmtao106.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2007-04-05T21:47:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c777ca$e9aa4de0$54ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 04:39 PM 4/5/2007, Roy wrote:\n\n Kim, the new" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "girl back on Earth who had never even met March, started coming on to him\nfor no good reason that I can see. Neither do I understand why March\nremarried Robin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I think Kim had heard that March was a really nice and \nhonorable, chivalrous guy. She wants to meet this musketeer. I think \nMarch's reconciliation with Robin is a back-story in the whole \nshebang. My take so far, anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a lot to put in one story on one subject. How is it related to the\ndouble meaning of the title? How does the misremembered, incorrect\nconclusion March supplied to the title prayer (76) relate to the correct\nconclusion?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Good question. And it makes you wonder is March has \nmisremembered his former marriage.\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<016001c777df$ff5918f0$2a287645@VALUED7B9600FA>", "from": { "name": "Alan Lewis", "address": "alanarc1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2007-04-06T00:10:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c777ca$e9aa4de0$54ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I absolutely agree with Roy that male/female relationships are one of the \nmain themes of the story. But this story is also a commentary on what we \nsee, vs what actually is, which relates back to the sexes also of course. \nAn important incident to include in the discussion is where March and Kit \nexplore the first tomb, and Kit realizes the woman they meet there is a \nrobot. When March asks her later how she knew, Kit says its because she saw \nthe woman's body was literally perfect, which tipped her off that it was \nimpossible. This relates to the big asteroid where everything seems to be \nappear as near perfect (as it's Platonic Ideal? -- a reversal of Plato's \ncave analogy?). The people who live there cannot imagine anyone wanting to \nleave. These are people who are living on the level of surfaces, and it is \ntelling that they are satisfied with that, even though all along they knew \nthey were signing on for an illusion, since they themselves were changed in \nappearance. March however does not wish to stay, so he represents the \nattempt to penetrate beyond surface meanings, which is appropriate as a \ndocumentary maker.\n\nThis also is applicable to the nature of love. March is at the infatuation \nstage with his relationship with Kit, where he is enchanted by her physical \nbeauty, and is blind to her faults the way the inhabitants of the asteroid \nare blind. Conversely, Kit professes her indifference to March's \nself-described lack of attractiveness. March's true feelings about his \nex-wife are enigmatic. He repeatedly denies loving her, and she claims to \ndisdain him, but as he goes over the last sequence in his mind he wonders if \nshe put herself out to save him, and we are told they re-marry. Is this \nanother illusion, or was it their surface feelings that were an illusion?\n\nAs for what place the flirtatious exchange between March and Kim plays in \nthis story, I think the idea is to show the sparks that can fly at the \nbeginning of a relationship. In this way we have portrayed in this story \nmany different stages of relationships. In each I think we are meant to \nwonder about the tension between surface appearances and deeper \nfeelings/truth.\n\nAnyone else struck by the parallel between this story and Jack Vance's Eyes \nof the Overworld?\n\nAlan " } ] }, { "message_id": "<15694.67.142.130.17.1175821913.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-06T01:11:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<016001c777df$ff5918f0$2a287645@VALUED7B9600FA>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So this story can be found where?\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1175826091.9341.1183296720@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "from": { "name": "Rex Lycanthrosaurus", "address": "lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm" }, "date": "2007-04-06T02:21:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<002901c7773c$27185e40$54ca5a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seeing the statue of the \"Founder\" in a fake paradise as representing\nWolfe\nhas an obvious appeal, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The notion of Wolfe being the Founder is interesting, but the name that\nwent through my head was L. Ron Hubbard, who loved statues of himself\n(they're ubiquitous in Scientology centers) and preached a rose-colored\nphilosophy. He was overweight toward the end of his life, but probably\nno \"fatter\" than stout GW.\n\nCuriously as well, Hubbard's son, L. Ron Jr., disavowed his father and\nchanged his last name to DeWolf. So could this be why the Founder\nreminds March Wildpring of his father?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Rex Lycanthrosaurus\n lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm\n\n-- \nhttp://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c77815$07bfb8c0$9dc95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2007-04-06T06:30:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<1175826091.9341.1183296720@webmail.messagingengine.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A key to understanding this story is the exact nature of the glamour cast\nover the people in asteroid memorial #19. It causes people to look better\nthan they really look; the very young to look older, old people to look\nyounger. But it's only new arrivals who simply look better than they did on\narrival; those who have been there a while are shown by the camera to be, in\nfact, sick and getting sicker by the day, soon to die. But it isn't just\npeople. A dank cavern looks like a pastoral heaven; a rickety shed like a\nquaint cottage; sewage like tea, etc. How may this glamour be categorized?\n\nMarch has an often repeated habit of rubbing his lantern jaw. Was this the\nhabit of some character from (pulp?) fiction I can't recall?\n\nWith the pointed exception of \"The Last Thrilling Wonder Story\", \"Memorare\"\nis the only other thing I have read by Wolfe that reminded me of Heinlein.\nThe near-future simplicity of the plot, the practical science, the dialogue,\nKit's characterization, all combined to give me that impression. Anyone else\nsee that?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2007-04-06T14:46:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<15694.67.142.130.17.1175821913.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 5, 2007, at 8:11 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSo this story can be found where?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is in the Wolfe-devoted April issue of Fantasy and Science Fiction \nMagazine.\n\nAll of the other Wolfe material is available online, but you have to \npurchase the mag for the story. Worth it.\n\nhttp://www.sfsite.com/fsf/toc0704.htm" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Geoffrey", "address": "gcgoodale at mac.com" }, "date": "2007-04-06T22:31:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c77815$07bfb8c0$9dc95a42@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Insightful points, Roy. This story stands out to me, an aging Ph.D. \nin English and an avid reader of Heinlein.\nThe idea of a glamour goes back to medieval times and was a precursor \nof demonic possession.\nShakespeare knew this when he has Macbeth envision a dagger before him.\nWolfe is at his subtle-yet-obvious best in Memorare, and the \nreligious element is evident as I write this on Good Friday:\nMemorare\nRemember, O Most Gracious Virgin Mary,\nthat never was it known that anyone who fled to Thy protection,\nimplored Thy help or sought Thy intercession,was left unaided.\nInspired by this confidence, I fly unto Thee, O Virgin of Virgins, my \nMother;\nto Thee do we come, before thee we kneel, sinful and sorrowful.\nO Mother of the Word Incarnate,despise not my petitions,\nbut in Thy clemency, hear and answer me. Amen.\n\nGeoffrey" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 6, 2007, at 2:30 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nA key to understanding this story is the exact nature of the \nglamour cast\nover the people in asteroid memorial #19. It causes people to look \nbetter\nthan they really look; the very young to look older, old people to \nlook\nyounger. But it's only new arrivals who simply look better than \nthey did on\narrival; those who have been there a while are shown by the camera \nto be, in\nfact, sick and getting sicker by the day, soon to die. But it isn't \njust\npeople. A dank cavern looks like a pastoral heaven; a rickety shed \nlike a\nquaint cottage; sewage like tea, etc. How may this glamour be \ncategorized?\n\nMarch has an often repeated habit of rubbing his lantern jaw. Was \nthis the\nhabit of some character from (pulp?) fiction I can't recall?\n\nWith the pointed exception of \"The Last Thrilling Wonder Story\", \n\"Memorare\"\nis the only other thing I have read by Wolfe that reminded me of \nHeinlein.\nThe near-future simplicity of the plot, the practical science, the \ndialogue,\nKit's characterization, all combined to give me that impression. \nAnyone else\nsee that?\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11229.67.142.130.43.1175902370.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2007-04-06T23:32:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Memorare", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Memorare\nRemember, O Most Gracious Virgin Mary,\nthat never was it known that anyone who fled to Thy protection,\nimplored Thy help or sought Thy intercession,was left unaided.\nInspired by this confidence, I fly unto Thee, O Virgin of Virgins, my\nMother;\nto Thee do we come, before thee we kneel, sinful and sorrowful.\nO Mother of the Word Incarnate,despise not my petitions,\nbut in Thy clemency, hear and answer me. Amen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On that note, some of you might enjoy this:\nhttp://www.youtube.com/v/0PN-GlwtHwg\n\n\n\n." } ] } ] }