Subject: (urth) Auk's fate?

From: Fred <lucidprevention at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:09:35 +0000

now. I've not been able to find much discussion on Auk, especially in the
short sun books. In RTTW, Horn/Silk says, "I struck Jahlee with my fists,
and when she fell I kicked her like Auk. A day may come when I can forgive
myself of that."

 Why did he kick Auk (or did he mean he kicked her like Auk might have or
something?)? One of the most frustrating things about these books was
waiting to hear about Auk, and then when he's mentioned, he gets only a
passing mention in an earlier chapter with Hide and his village. What
happened with Auk?

 Thank you very much.
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From: Transentient <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:06:04 +0000

I think when I read that, I just imagined Auk kicking a whore. I  
think he did mean the he kicked Jahlee _in the same fashion_ as Auk  
would have, but there may be a reference to a specific ocurrance that  
I don't remember. Interesting.

On Mar 29, 2007, at 5:09 PM, Fred wrote:

>  I'm new to all of this, and I've been searching these archives for  
> a while now. I've not been able to find much discussion on Auk,  
> especially in the short sun books. In RTTW, Horn/Silk says, "I  
> struck Jahlee with my fists, and when she fell I kicked her like  
> Auk. A day may come when I can forgive myself of that."
>
>  Why did he kick Auk (or did he mean he kicked her like Auk might  
> have or something?)? One of the most frustrating things about these  
> books was waiting to hear about Auk, and then when he's mentioned,  
> he gets only a passing mention in an earlier chapter with Hide and  
> his village. What happened with Auk?
>
>  Thank you very much.
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

---

From: Matthew Groves <matthewalangroves at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 14:44:56 +0000

It's been a little while since I read the books, but in The Book of
the Long Sun, (Horn and Nettle write that) Patera Silk shrives Auk,
and the content of his shriving is, among other things, that he struck
and kicked Chenille when she spurned his gift (I forget what the gift
was).  I seem to recall he had already been shriven for this by Silk's
predecessor, Patera Pike, but his guilt is so great that he confesses
again to Silk.  Anyway, after Silk/Horn kills Jahlee, he also is
unable to forgive himself.  I suppose the gift Jahlee spurns is
Silk/Horn's forgiveness.  He invites her into his family in spite of
the attack that nearly killed Sinew, and she tries to kill Horn's
wife.

I like Auk too, especially in that pair of scenes surrounding Silk's
caper at Blood's villa -- his shriving beforehand and his laughter at
Silk's adventure afterward.  He's a great foil for Silk.  As for what
happened to him, we're just not given that much information.

---

From: Charles Reed <jazzy_jeeves at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:14:47 +0000

It's been a while since I read the books too (although I'm currently 
re-reading Long Sun and am enjoying it so much that I'll most likely 
follow that up with Short Sun), but I think I remember reading that Auk 
and Chenille wound up on Green where they were survived for several 
years before being killed.  I don't have a reference to point to, 
though, and the way the the books are written makes it difficult to look 
things up unless you already know where they are. 

Does anybody else recall what I'm recalling, or am I completely off base?

Charles

---

From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 20:53:38 +0000

Auk is still alive when Horn runs into him on Green. I don't recall any 
direct reference to his demise.

> > happened to him, we're just not given that much information.

_________________________________________________________________
Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN 
Presents today. 
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---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 06:50:08 +0000

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:09:35 +1000 Fred <lucidprevention at gmail.com> 

>a while
>now. I've not been able to find much discussion on Auk, especially 

>in the
>short sun books. In RTTW, Horn/Silk says, "I struck Jahlee with my 

>fists,
>and when she fell I kicked her like Auk. A day may come when I can 

>forgive
>have or
>something?)? 

Somewhere early on in Long Sun, we learn that Auk once kicked a man 
to death.

>One of the most frustrating things about these books 
>was

It is very frustrating. SilkHorn meets Chenille (and Auk? can't 
rememebr) in the cellar of Sinew's house on green, but we learn 
absolutely nothing about what they said to each other. 

However I think it's pretty easy to guess what happened afterwards. 
This meeting happens shortly after SilkHorn and his little army of 
astral-travelling mercenaries have cleared the old city on green of 
inhumi. These inhumi were holding A & C's children hostage. 
SilkHorn would have reconciled Sinew's villagers with Chenille, and 
she & her colleagues would have gone back to the city to claim back 
her children, and to claim the city for humans, guarding it against 
the return of inhumi. This would have fulfilled the hope of the 
Neighbor when he set Horn the task of clearing the sewer, that by 
doing so the sewer might be cleared forever.

I think you can guess other things about Auk. It must have been Auk 
with his preternatural mechanical insight who reprogrammed his 
lander so that it would fly between Green & Blue under inhumi 
control. 

Less certainly, I feel pretty sure that Pas gave Auk this insight 
and sent him from the Whorl just in order that Auk would build a 
new Mainframe for Pas & the others to dwell in & rule from. In a 
sense the inhumi performed a valuable service in taking Auk 
prisoner before he could do this.

---

From: Matthew Groves <matthewalangroves at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 00:01:00 +0000

*thalassocrat wrote: *Somewhere early on in Long Sun, we learn that Auk once
kicked a man
to death.

That's right -- I said earlier he kicked Chenille, but that's wrong.  During
the shriving, Auk says:
  "I was going to kick her.  I didn't, but if I had I'd probably have killed
her.  I kicked a man to death, once.  That was part of what I told Patera
Pike."
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From: James B. Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 13:51:47 +0000

I've been away so much that I may have missed it, but have we 
discussed "Memorare" here yet?

Spoiler space

I was struck by the fact that Wolfe makes himself the godplaying dead 
man. It would be easy to have the statue be that of "Richard Nixon" 
or "Hitler" or someone else, but Wolfe takes upon himself the role of 
god-playing tyrant. He seems to be saying that he's as potentially 
evil as anyone else. Salvation is only by grace, as the prayers and 
title indicate.
         Which raised to me another question/dimension of the story: 
the persons sent back to earth by the Wolfegod. Are these the readers 
of the story? Is Wolfe suggesting that his own readers move back into 
the world to do good (he hopes), but that any anti-Wolfe would also 
be sending readers back into the world for evil purposes?
         Anyway, I thought this was excellent vintage-Wolfe novella, 
multidimensional and fully textured. Anybody want to talk about it?

Nutria

James B. Jordan
Director, Biblical Horizons
Box 1096
Niceville, FL 32588
http://www.biblicalhorizons.com 
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 14:33:55 +0000

> http://www.biblicalhorizons.com

Neat website, James.

I especially liked this:
http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/miscellaneous/the-menace-of-chinese-food/

.

---

From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 15:20:36 +0000

On Apr 4, 2007, at 8:51 AM, James B. Jordan wrote:

> I was struck by the fact that Wolfe makes himself the godplaying  
> dead man. It would be easy to have the statue be that of "Richard  
> Nixon" or "Hitler" or someone else, but Wolfe takes upon himself  
> the role of god-playing tyrant. He seems to be saying that he's as  
> potentially evil as anyone else. Salvation is only by grace, as the  
> prayers and title indicate.

I wondered if anyone else would think the statue was of Wolfe.  Is  
the GW in Memorare the first head of Cerberus?  That seems like too  
much of a closed circle.

Matthew

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 15:37:00 +0000

> I've been away so much that I may have missed it, but have we 
discussed "Memorare"
> here yet?
dead man. It
> would be easy to have the statue be that of "Richard Nixon" or 
"Hitler" or someone
> else, but Wolfe takes upon himself the role of god-playing 
tyrant. He seems to be
> saying that he's as potentially evil as anyone else. Salvation 
is only by grace,
> as the prayers and title indicate.
>         Which raised to me another question/dimension of the 
story: the persons
> sent back to earth by the Wolfegod. Are these the readers of the 
story? Is Wolfe
> suggesting that his own readers move back into the world to do 
good (he hopes),
> but that any anti-Wolfe would also be sending readers back into 
the world for evil
> purposes?

To be facetious for a moment, doesn't it make perfect sense for 
the godplaying dead man to be Wolfe, the author of the story? 
After all, the story will be read long after he's dead; the author 
has the power of a god (sort of); and there is no acceptable 
theodicy for the inhabitants of a story - any evil done to them is 
fully purposed, thought through, and carried out by the author.

-- 
Gwern
Inquiring minds want to know.

---

From: James B. Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:18:13 +0000

>the GW in Memorare the first head of Cerberus?  That seems like too

I guess one would put the Wolfe identification into the category of a 
mcguffin (?), something we don't have to know to get the story. But 
the statue looks just like Wolfe, and Wolfe has appeared in other 
stories by describing himself. Also, the main character (I don't have 
the story before me) says that identifying the dead man will be 
difficult for him -- being a character, how can he identify the 
author? I have not yet reread the story to see if there be other clues.
         Setting aside the Wolfe identification, I think we can see 
that the "heaven" that turns out to be fake and deadly is a symbol 
for socialism, fascism, and all the other anti-liberty things that 
Wolfe is against. One is told that everything is fine, and one keeps 
believing everything is fine, but the reality is that things are not 
fine at all. It is all one man, one dictator, controlling it all, 
including controlling the mind. The comments in the story about 
America no longer being a free country fit with this theme.
         Freedom as Wolfe's large thematic interest is, in this 
story, linked with being realistic about life. Not living in a 
fantasy world (!). And it would seem that prayer and grace are ways 
of becoming realistic and being disabused of fantasy and fakery.
         Just some more observations.

Nutria

James B. Jordan
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From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:52:54 +0000

On Apr 4, 2007, at 11:18 AM, James B. Jordan wrote:

> Setting aside the Wolfe identification, I think we can see that the  
> "heaven" that turns out to be fake and deadly is a symbol for  
> socialism, fascism, and all the other anti-liberty things that  
> Wolfe is against. One is told that everything is fine, and one  
> keeps believing everything is fine, but the reality is that things  
> are not fine at all. It is all one man, one dictator, controlling  
> it all, including controlling the mind. The comments in the story  
> about America no longer being a free country fit with this theme.

Wolfe is apparently writing a novel in the same "milieu" as  
Memorare:  http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=5&id=40135

 > An Evil Guest, a novel-in-progress set in the same milieu as  
"Memorare," also deals with freedom, Wolfe said.

(Mark Lewin previously posted the same link with a snippet about  
_Pirate Freedom_)

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 04:37:39 +0000

>evil as anyone else. Salvation is only by grace, as the prayers and

Seeing the statue of the "Founder" in a fake paradise as representing Wolfe
has an obvious appeal, but  . . . what about the larger part of the story,
the relationships among the four main characters? The memorials aren't built
by those they honor; they are built by the dead person's
relatives/followers. If Wolfe is the honored dead, who built the memorial --
and why?

>         Just some more observations.

The fake paradise is shown to be foul and diseased by the neutral eye of the
camera. Only the glamour cast over the people who go there, the rose-colored
view, permits them to see that world as much better than it really is. If
Wolfe sees himself as the giant bronze lord of such a sorry realm, what is
he saying about his legacy? More to the point; what is he saying about you
and me and the rest of the faithful readers of his fantasies?

March thought that the statue of the Founder looked like his father. Penny
(Robin) thought it looked like her grandfather. If Wolfe was the Founder,
who are March and Sue/Robin/Penny?

-Roy

---

From: James B. Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 15:49:42 +0000

>relatives/followers. If Wolfe is the honored dead, who built the memorial --

         Is it always the case that memorials are built by others? 
I'll have to reread this soon -- wanted to let it sit for a couple of 
weeks first. But if so, then Wolfe is saying something about how a 
man's work is often perverted by his disciples.

>and me and the rest of the faithful readers of his fantasies?

         Given some of the weird misreadings that Wolfe has received, 
maybe he IS saying something about "us." :-( Or about some of us anyway.

>who are March and Sue/Robin/Penny?

         Assuming Wolfe as Founder (which I've assumed, though of 
course that's debatable I guess), then they are either characters or 
else descendants analogous to the Numbered folk in *5th Head.*  Or 
possibly readers.
         BTW:
                 Sue, from Susan - Susannah = Hebrew lily vegetable
                 Robin = bird animal
                 Penny = mineral
Something's going on there. I can see Penny as the name she has in a 
realm ruled over by a metal man. Susannah was falsely accused of 
adultery and defended by Daniel -- I gather Sue was really guilty, 
she wanted reconciliation.
         FWIW.

Nutria

James B. Jordan
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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 21:39:33 +0000

>she wanted reconciliation.

Sue was admittedly guilty, which brings up another point. Male-female
relationships, more specifically, marriage, have a lot to do with this
story. I mean, March, out in the boondocks, is unexpectedly visited by both
his girlfriend and his ex-wife. They are soon followed by his ex-wife's
estranged second husband, seeking to get her back. The girlfriend and second
husband get killed and March, after the main action of the story, goes back
for Robin (breaking a promise made to God in doing so [48]) and marries her
again; but this time she takes March's name.

Ms. Applefield, on one of the non-lethal memorials, had admonished Kit that
her relationship with March as "close enough" to marriage wasn't good
enough (23). Only marriage would do. Wife-beater Jim died nobly defending
his woman, but hadn't been above getting naked with Kit. March kept asking
Kit to marry him but she refused; he would hinder her career. Kim, the new
girl back on Earth who had never even met March, started coming on to him
for no good reason that I can see. Neither do I understand why March
remarried Robin.

That's a lot to put in one story on one subject. How is it related to the
double meaning of the title? How does the misremembered, incorrect
conclusion March supplied to the title prayer (76) relate to the correct
conclusion?

-Roy

---

From: James B. Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 21:47:23 +0000

At 04:39 PM 4/5/2007, Roy wrote:

  Kim, the new
>for no good reason that I can see. Neither do I understand why March

         I think Kim had heard that March was a really nice and 
honorable, chivalrous guy. She wants to meet this musketeer. I think 
March's reconciliation with Robin is a back-story in the whole 
shebang. My take so far, anyway.

>conclusion March supplied to the title prayer (76) relate to the correct

         Good question. And it makes you wonder is March has 
misremembered his former marriage.

Nutria

James B. Jordan
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From: Alan Lewis <alanarc1 at optonline.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 00:10:34 +0000

I absolutely agree with Roy that male/female relationships are one of the 
main themes of the story.  But this story is also a commentary on what we 
see, vs what actually is, which relates back to the sexes also of course. 
An important incident to include in the discussion is where March and Kit 
explore the first tomb, and Kit realizes the woman they meet there is a 
robot.  When March asks her later how she knew, Kit says its because she saw 
the woman's body was literally perfect, which tipped her off that it was 
impossible.  This relates to the big asteroid where everything seems to be 
appear as near perfect (as it's Platonic Ideal? -- a reversal of Plato's 
cave analogy?).  The people who live there cannot imagine anyone wanting to 
leave.  These are people who are living on the level of surfaces, and it is 
telling that they are satisfied with that, even though all along they knew 
they were signing on for an illusion, since they themselves were changed in 
appearance.  March however does not wish to stay, so he represents the 
attempt to penetrate beyond surface meanings, which is appropriate as a 
documentary maker.

This also is applicable to the nature of love.  March is at the infatuation 
stage with his relationship with Kit, where he is enchanted by her physical 
beauty, and is blind to her faults the way the inhabitants of the asteroid 
are blind.  Conversely, Kit professes her indifference to March's 
self-described lack of attractiveness.  March's true feelings about his 
ex-wife are enigmatic.  He repeatedly denies loving her, and she claims to 
disdain him, but as he goes over the last sequence in his mind he wonders if 
she put herself out to save him, and we are told they re-marry.  Is this 
another illusion, or was it their surface feelings that were an illusion?

As for what place the flirtatious exchange between March and Kim plays in 
this story, I think the idea is to show the sparks that can fly at the 
beginning of a relationship.  In this way we have portrayed in this story 
many different stages of relationships.  In each I think we are meant to 
wonder about the tension between surface appearances and deeper 
feelings/truth.

Anyone else struck by the parallel between this story and Jack Vance's Eyes 
of the Overworld?

Alan

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 01:11:53 +0000

So this story can be found where?

.

---

From: Rex Lycanthrosaurus <lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm>
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 02:21:31 +0000

> has an obvious appeal, 

The notion of Wolfe being the Founder is interesting, but the name that
went through my head was L. Ron Hubbard, who loved statues of himself
(they're ubiquitous in Scientology centers) and preached a rose-colored
philosophy. He was overweight toward the end of his life, but probably
no "fatter" than stout GW.

Curiously as well, Hubbard's son, L. Ron Jr., disavowed his father and
changed his last name to DeWolf. So could this be why the Founder
reminds March Wildpring of his father?

-- 
  Rex Lycanthrosaurus
  lycanthrosaurus at fastmail.fm

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:30:06 +0000

A key to understanding this story is the exact nature of the glamour cast
over the people in asteroid memorial #19. It causes people to look better
than they really look; the very young to look older, old people to look
younger. But it's only new arrivals who simply look better than they did on
arrival; those who have been there a while are shown by the camera to be, in
fact, sick and getting sicker by the day, soon to die. But it isn't just
people. A dank cavern looks like a pastoral heaven; a rickety shed like a
quaint cottage; sewage like tea, etc. How may this glamour be categorized?

March has an often repeated habit of rubbing his lantern jaw. Was this the
habit of some character from (pulp?) fiction I can't recall?

With the pointed exception of "The Last Thrilling Wonder Story", "Memorare"
is the only other thing I have read by Wolfe that reminded me of Heinlein.
The near-future simplicity of the plot, the practical science, the dialogue,
Kit's characterization, all combined to give me that impression. Anyone else
see that?

-Roy

---

From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:46:16 +0000

> So this story can be found where?

It is in the Wolfe-devoted April issue of Fantasy and Science Fiction  
Magazine.

All of the other Wolfe material is available online, but you have to  
purchase the mag for the story.  Worth it.

http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/toc0704.htm

---

From: Geoffrey <gcgoodale at mac.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 22:31:50 +0000

Insightful points, Roy.  This story stands out to me, an aging Ph.D.  
in English and an avid reader of Heinlein.
The idea of a glamour goes back to medieval times and was a precursor  
of demonic possession.
Shakespeare knew this when he has Macbeth envision a dagger before him.
Wolfe is at his subtle-yet-obvious best in Memorare, and the  
religious element is evident as I write this on Good Friday:
Memorare
Remember, O Most Gracious Virgin Mary,
that never was it known that anyone who fled to Thy protection,
implored Thy help or sought Thy intercession,was left unaided.
Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto Thee, O Virgin of Virgins, my  
Mother;
to Thee do we come, before thee we kneel, sinful and sorrowful.
O Mother of the Word Incarnate,despise not my petitions,
but in Thy clemency, hear and answer me.      Amen.

Geoffrey

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 23:32:50 +0000

> but in Thy clemency, hear and answer me.      Amen.

On that note, some of you might enjoy this:
http://www.youtube.com/v/0PN-GlwtHwg

.