{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4805",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 4805,
    "subject": "The significance of Dr. Talos and Baldanders in Book of the\n\tNew Sun",
    "messages": 3,
    "voices": 3,
    "first": "2007-04-02T02:49:03+00:00",
    "last": "2007-04-02T05:12:56+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<57093.75.72.182.194.1175482143.squirrel@webmail.mcad.edu>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Joshua Mattson",
        "address": "joshua_mattson at mcad.edu"
      },
      "date": "2007-04-02T02:49:03+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) The significance of Dr. Talos and Baldanders in Book of the\n\tNew Sun",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I recently finished Book of the New Sun for the first time, and, today,\nRobert Borski's Solar Labyrinth. Absent from it was specific information\non Baldanders and Dr. Talos. These two, to me, are two of the most\ncompelling characters in BotNS.\n\nI've heard that Baldanders in some sense is a Satanic/Luciferic figure and\nis aligned with the alien monsters of Urth. But how does Dr. Talos fit\ninto the story? Why exactly is Baldanders an alternate candidate to bring\nthe New Sun? I thought that only Autrarchs could be candidates.\n\nThank you."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<461074EB.20208@io.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Jeff Wilson",
        "address": "jwilson at io.com"
      },
      "date": "2007-04-02T03:13:47+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) The significance of Dr. Talos and Baldanders in Book of\n the\tNew Sun",
      "in_reply_to": "<57093.75.72.182.194.1175482143.squirrel@webmail.mcad.edu>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Joshua Mattson wrote:\nI recently finished Book of the New Sun for the first time, and, today,\nRobert Borski's Solar Labyrinth. Absent from it was specific information\non Baldanders and Dr. Talos. These two, to me, are two of the most\ncompelling characters in BotNS.\n\nI've heard that Baldanders in some sense is a Satanic/Luciferic figure and\nis aligned with the alien monsters of Urth. But how does Dr. Talos fit\ninto the story? Why exactly is Baldanders an alternate candidate to bring\nthe New Sun? I thought that only Autrarchs could be candidates."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Within the context of the Book + Urth's cosmology (as I and most listers \nunderstand it), there are no \"candidates\", only Severian, Who _is_ the \nNew Sun. The various powers and posers who have imperfect knowledge of \nthe New Sun's nature of course do not realize this, and they believe it \nis possible for a sufficiently powerful person or faction to sieze \ndivine favor by fulfilling the prophecy, similar to the Nazis trying \nmanipulate moral authority by seizing the Holy Grail or the Ark of the \nCovenant in the Indian Jones films.\n\nSo it's not the lack of being Autarch that is holding Baldanders back; \nhe could eat brains along with the best of them. It is the lack of his \nbeing the Theoanthropos; that is, he's not God."
        },
        {
          "kind": "sig",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<1f7617370704012212j71b7db28waed189fc4c11bedf@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes",
        "address": "danldo at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2007-04-02T05:12:56+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) The significance of Dr. Talos and Baldanders in Book of\n\tthe New Sun",
      "in_reply_to": "<461074EB.20208@io.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Whoa, there, Jeff. I agree with much of what you say, but this ..."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On 4/1/07, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote:\nSo it's not the lack of being Autarch that is holding Baldanders back;\nhe could eat brains along with the best of them. It is the lack of his\nbeing the Theoanthropos; that is, he's not God."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "... requires some serious reconsideration, for Severian is *not* the\nTheoanthropos either. Wolfe has gone to great pains to be clear on\nthat; Severian is purely human -- at least, until he is bonded to the\nWhite Fountain = New Sun after his trial. (That this bonding takes\nplace in such a way that he has always already been bonded to\nit makes matters a bit more confusing, but he definitely wasn't\nuntil he was, then he alway had been. If you see what I mean.)\n\nAt any rate, I'm fairly sure that the only case of the Theoanthropos\nactually appearing in Wolfe's fiction is in \"The Detective of Dreams\"\n-- and now you can all tell me what I've missed, but anyway, to\nreturn to Joshua's original question:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "I've heard that Baldanders in some sense is a Satanic/Luciferic figure and\nis aligned with the alien monsters of Urth. But how does Dr. Talos fit\ninto the story? Why exactly is Baldanders an alternate candidate to bring\nthe New Sun? I thought that only Autrarchs could be candidates."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "How does Talos fit in?\n\nWell, one of Baldanders's projects is to make himself more-or-less\nimmortal by having his body continually grow. It is mentioned that he\nmust in time become aquatic, for his bones would not be able to support\nhis weight after a certain size: as Homer Simpson might say, \"In this\nhousehold, we obey the Square-Cube Law.\" At any rate, what he\nseems to be doing is a very advanced and perverted form of the\n\"Great Work\" of alchemy.\n\nThe alien monsters -- the Megatherians, who may or may not all be\n\"aliens\"; _some_ may be like Baldanders -- appear to be a demonic\nfaction in the same sense that the Cacogens are angelic: the Cacogens\nserve (or seek to) the Increate; the Megatherians seem to oppose His\nwill. Certainly they seek to frustrate the plan by which Urth will be\nreborn with a New Sun. They seek dominion over the Urth, but their\npower seems to be constrained in some interesting ways, aside from\nthe limits placed on them by their size, so that they must act through\nintermediaries. Among these are/have been Typhon and the Ascians;\nwhether Baldanders is one of their tools or merely seeks to be one is\nunclear.\n\nDoctor Talos is a creation of Baldanders; the two of them say as much.\nTalos was created to do the parts of Baldanders's projects -- most of\nwhich focus on Baldanders -- that he himself could not do, either\nbecause there's a limit to how much surgery you can perform upon\nyourself, or because as Baldanders's body grows it has new needs\nand limits. One of these limits seems to be a high energy consumption,\nso that he is tired much of the time, and Talos is responsible for\nrousing him in the morning.\n\nAs for Satanic/Luciferic, one thing to consider is \"Byronic.\" Dr. Talos\nhimself draws attention to the thematic links between the two of them\nand the Frankenstein story, though of course the parallels are highly\ninexact. Recall, then, that the subtitle of Mary Shelley's book is \"The\nNew Prometheus,\" and recall also that when she conceived it the\nShelleys were hanging out at Byron's place in Switzerland.  To a\nreasonably-orthodox Christian like Wolfe, the mistake of Byronism can\nbe summed up simply: the belief that \"Better to reign in Hell than to\nserve in Heaven,\" the words Milton put into Satan's mouth, is\nsomehow a noble idea -- that rebellion and self-willedness are\ninherently good things. (Note that I do not claim that Byron himself\nmade this mistake, though for all of me he may have; but his claque\ndid, and his legions of black-cloaked imitators down the years since\ncertainly have.)\n\nI'm not sure Baldanders is Satanic/Luciferic *as such*; it is, after\nall, Typhon and not Baldanders who puts Severian through his\n\"temptation in the wilderness.\" But he clearly isn't on the side of\nthe angels. He is self-seeking, and while that ultimately serves\nthe side of the devils, it appears that he is also a tool of the\nCacogens to some extent."
        },
        {
          "kind": "sig",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\nSoon, where Toon Town once stood will be a string of gas stations,\ninexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire\nsalons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards\nreaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}